Comments on: A Meaty Monopoly http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/ Jews, Food, and Contemporary Issues Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:49:20 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.2 By: Rabbi Shmuel http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-6875 Rabbi Shmuel Wed, 21 May 2008 16:59:22 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-6875 Here’s FM’s take on the situation (or what he calls “sins of omissions” – because they fail to see things through his eyes – kinda like the Lubavitcher Rebbe or anyone who dares disagree with him) “Fishkoff's piece also focuses on a possible kosher meat shortage, and it contains sins of omission and commission both: 1. Quotes Menachem Lubinsky without ever mentioning he has often been on Rubashkin's payroll. “ Here’s the JTA piece: Lubinsky, who does consulting work for Agriprocessors, said that most of what the company has on the market isn’t coming from Postville but from some of its smaller North American plants or South American operation. Am I missing something? And you’re taking me to task for ad hominem attacks? Here’s FM’s take on the situation (or what he calls “sins of omissions” – because they fail to see things through his eyes – kinda like the Lubavitcher Rebbe or anyone who dares disagree with him)
“Fishkoff’s piece also focuses on a possible kosher meat shortage, and it contains sins of omission and commission both:
1. Quotes Menachem Lubinsky without ever mentioning he has often been on Rubashkin’s payroll. “
Here’s the JTA piece:
Lubinsky, who does consulting work for Agriprocessors, said that most of what the company has on the market isn’t coming from Postville but from some of its smaller North American plants or South American operation.

Am I missing something? And you’re taking me to task for ad hominem attacks?

]]> By: Rabbi Shmuel http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-6874 Rabbi Shmuel Wed, 21 May 2008 16:48:15 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-6874 did it take you 7 months to come up with that response? If someone has a personal axe to grind (scotty over at FM) why is that not a legitimate part of the dialog when his raison d'etre is essentially ad hominem attacks on anyone who disagrees with him - just curious did it take you 7 months to come up with that response? If someone has a personal axe to grind (scotty over at FM) why is that not a legitimate part of the dialog when his raison d’etre is essentially ad hominem attacks on anyone who disagrees with him - just curious

]]> By: Gersh http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-6873 Gersh Wed, 21 May 2008 15:31:30 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-6873 Debra, please learn to read an article before you comment upon it -- Leah said "But for the many people for whom that’s not an option either, they are left without an alternative." IN SPECIFIC RESPONSE to your complaint! Shmuel, if you're a rabbi AND a lawyer, you should know better than to resort to ad hominem attacks. Debra, please learn to read an article before you comment upon it — Leah said “But for the many people for whom that’s not an option either, they are left without an alternative.” IN SPECIFIC RESPONSE to your complaint!

Shmuel, if you’re a rabbi AND a lawyer, you should know better than to resort to ad hominem attacks.

]]> By: Debra Solomon van Culiblog http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-6805 Debra Solomon van Culiblog Sun, 18 May 2008 19:44:59 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-6805 Agriprocessors is 'not the only option for kosher meat-eaters'. Not eating meat remains a perfectly acceptable alternative to eating meat. BILLIONS OF PEOPLE DO IT THEIR ENTIRE LIVES. Considering the environmental impact of meat-eating, I would hope that the Carrot would at least cite this viable alternative. Agriprocessors is ‘not the only option for kosher meat-eaters’. Not eating meat remains a perfectly acceptable alternative to eating meat. BILLIONS OF PEOPLE DO IT THEIR ENTIRE LIVES.

Considering the environmental impact of meat-eating, I would hope that the Carrot would at least cite this viable alternative.

]]> By: Rabbi Shmuel http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-3466 Rabbi Shmuel Mon, 26 Nov 2007 03:42:33 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-3466 do you know who FM is and what his deal is? he's some megalomaniacal BT who was once a Jewish student leader - he wrote a chutzpadik letter to the Lubavitcher Rebbe wanting to know why the shluchim were not enlisted to rescue Ethiopain Jewry. When he didn't get the response he wanted, he basically began a lifelong vendetta against all things Lubavitch. I understand that he had somed failed meat business in Minnesota also for which he blames Rubashkin. He blames everything on Chabad - his business failings, his lack of friends, his singleness (I understand from friends of his that women find him far too intense to be comfortable with) He has become somewhat of a minor hit with the veggie crowd. Every time there's a new agriprocessor post Richard Schwartz and his trained seals chime in - it's really quite amusing but when the hysteria dies down, there's not much there. BTW - he does get an "A" for tenancity. He's not afaraid to argue halacha with Rabbis (even when he's dead wrong) or afraid to argue anythibng with anyone. He onceprinted a t-shirt with Britney Spears photo on it. I politely pointed out that such use vioated her right to publicity and was in all likelihood a copyright infringement as well. He responsed with a diatribe about his right to fair use - I've only practiced IP law for 25 years - so I take it from whence it comes and it sure don't come from him. BTW "Failed Messiah" ironically the nom du blog fits him well do you know who FM is and what his deal is? he’s some megalomaniacal BT who was once a Jewish student leader - he wrote a chutzpadik letter to the Lubavitcher Rebbe wanting to know why the shluchim were not enlisted to rescue Ethiopain Jewry. When he didn’t get the response he wanted, he basically began a lifelong vendetta against all things Lubavitch. I understand that he had somed failed meat business in Minnesota also for which he blames Rubashkin. He blames everything on Chabad - his business failings, his lack of friends, his singleness (I understand from friends of his that women find him far too intense to be comfortable with)
He has become somewhat of a minor hit with the veggie crowd. Every time there’s a new agriprocessor post Richard Schwartz and his trained seals chime in - it’s really quite amusing but when the hysteria dies down, there’s not much there.
BTW - he does get an “A” for tenancity. He’s not afaraid to argue halacha with Rabbis (even when he’s dead wrong) or afraid to argue anythibng with anyone. He onceprinted a t-shirt with Britney Spears photo on it. I politely pointed out that such use vioated her right to publicity and was in all likelihood a copyright infringement as well. He responsed with a diatribe about his right to fair use - I’ve only practiced IP law for 25 years - so I take it from whence it comes and it sure don’t come from him.
BTW “Failed Messiah” ironically the nom du blog fits him well

]]> By: Leah Koenig http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-3464 Leah Koenig Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:47:15 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-3464 By the way - FailedMessiah, has definitely done in-depth research on The Agriprocessors situation. Check it out here: http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2007/08/cow-suspected-t.html By the way - FailedMessiah, has definitely done in-depth research on The Agriprocessors situation. Check it out here:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.c.....ted-t.html

]]> By: Leah Koenig http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-3463 Leah Koenig Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:39:43 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-3463 Just for the record - I never said "they wouldn't print it if it wasn't true." I said, "organizations don't go after companies unless they're doing something seriously wrong." Granted, I am not the authority on the kosher industry, and you may be right that UFCW (hidden agenda or otherwise) is disproportionately focusing their attention on Agriprocessors - the same way The Gap and Kathy Lee Gifford got the majority of public heat for sweatshop labor in the late 90s. But even if Agriprocessors is doing better than the UFCW claims, I think it's nearly impossible to uphold the rightfully high standards of shechita, animal safety, health, OR workers rights (though that might be the easiest of the four to get right) in a centralized, industrialized animal slaughtering plant. I think that's primarily where we disagree. As for visiting Postville - thanks for the offer Shmuel - I'll start with the goat at the Food Conference, and we'll see where we get from there. :) Just for the record - I never said “they wouldn’t print it if it wasn’t true.” I said, “organizations don’t go after companies unless they’re doing something seriously wrong.”

Granted, I am not the authority on the kosher industry, and you may be right that UFCW (hidden agenda or otherwise) is disproportionately focusing their attention on Agriprocessors - the same way The Gap and Kathy Lee Gifford got the majority of public heat for sweatshop labor in the late 90s. But even if Agriprocessors is doing better than the UFCW claims, I think it’s nearly impossible to uphold the rightfully high standards of shechita, animal safety, health, OR workers rights (though that might be the easiest of the four to get right) in a centralized, industrialized animal slaughtering plant. I think that’s primarily where we disagree.

As for visiting Postville - thanks for the offer Shmuel - I’ll start with the goat at the Food Conference, and we’ll see where we get from there. :)

]]> By: Rabbi Shmuel http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-3451 Rabbi Shmuel Fri, 23 Nov 2007 00:51:08 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-3451 1) I insisted on unfettered access and was allowed in almost every area (other than a sterile room where franks are made) - I was in town a few days and got to speak to workers outside the plant as well - any way you slice it it's miserable work As I've said in the past thre is actually somewhat of a paradox - it actually makes sense to centralize a shechita and processing facility (by industry standard agriprocessor is a drop in the bucket) to minimize the overall environmental footprint. Can they clean up their act a bit? Probably - But there are powerful winds of hidden agenda blowing around them which forces them to be on the defensive far more than they ought to be. BTW their internal testing laboratoy would make any college science lab professor proud - they have state of the art equipment. Fecal contamination is not a pretty thing but it's not like they're turning their backs on safety issues or environmental issues. Ironically when they are attacked and boycotted by people who don't ewven keep kosher what impact does that have on them? As Torah Jews, we've been in dialog with them and I think change is only going to come from within. and if you'd like to go with me, write a grant and we'll get you whatever access you feel would satisfy your comfort level. But a blog post which in essence says "hey they wouild'nt print it if it wasn't true falls way short of the level of journalistic integrity you strive so hard to maintain 1) I insisted on unfettered access and was allowed in almost every area (other than a sterile room where franks are made) - I was in town a few days and got to speak to workers outside the plant as well - any way you slice it it’s miserable work

As I’ve said in the past thre is actually somewhat of a paradox - it actually makes sense to centralize a shechita and processing facility (by industry standard agriprocessor is a drop in the bucket) to minimize the overall environmental footprint.

Can they clean up their act a bit? Probably - But there are powerful winds of hidden agenda blowing around them which forces them to be on the defensive far more than they ought to be. BTW their internal testing laboratoy would make any college science lab professor proud - they have state of the art equipment. Fecal contamination is not a pretty thing but it’s not like they’re turning their backs on safety issues or environmental issues.

Ironically when they are attacked and boycotted by people who don’t ewven keep kosher what impact does that have on them? As Torah Jews, we’ve been in dialog with them and I think change is only going to come from within.

and if you’d like to go with me, write a grant and we’ll get you whatever access you feel would satisfy your comfort level.

But a blog post which in essence says “hey they wouild’nt print it if it wasn’t true falls way short of the level of journalistic integrity you strive so hard to maintain

]]> By: Leah Koenig http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-3450 Leah Koenig Thu, 22 Nov 2007 04:03:03 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-3450 Shmuel - I'm by no means suggesting that a 50% accurate advertisement is okay...if the UFCW is posting misinformation, that's a serious problem as well. Still - with all do respect (and I hope you know how much I sincerely respect your opinion), how do you know that what they showed you at Postville was the full story? I by no means want Agribusiness to shut down - but just like I don't want McDonalds to simply hire Temple Grandin and call it a day, I equally don't want Agribusiness to start hiring expensive PR folks who help them spin an eco-friendly message, without legitmately cleaning up their act. There has to be transparency and accountability, and I'm not convinced that Agriprocessors is giving either of those things to customers. By the way - if I went to Postville, do you really think someone who looks like me would get past the front gate? Shmuel - I’m by no means suggesting that a 50% accurate advertisement is okay…if the UFCW is posting misinformation, that’s a serious problem as well.

Still - with all do respect (and I hope you know how much I sincerely respect your opinion), how do you know that what they showed you at Postville was the full story?

I by no means want Agribusiness to shut down - but just like I don’t want McDonalds to simply hire Temple Grandin and call it a day, I equally don’t want Agribusiness to start hiring expensive PR folks who help them spin an eco-friendly message, without legitmately cleaning up their act. There has to be transparency and accountability, and I’m not convinced that Agriprocessors is giving either of those things to customers.

By the way - if I went to Postville, do you really think someone who looks like me would get past the front gate?

]]> By: Rabbi Shmuel http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-3449 Rabbi Shmuel Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:23:20 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/a-meaty-monopoly/#comment-3449 I agree - if a union could place an ad in a major periodical and fill it with innuendo to the point that a corporation might decide its not cost effective to do battle on first amendment or other grounds and the union can get away with it, it's a shonde - even if it's only 50% accurate? what if people wrote a piece about Hazon that was only 50% accurate? I'm sure there'd be outrage and possibly an injunction or two - it's just about double standards - why dontcha all go out to postville and tour the plant and talk to the workers - I know I did and the results I came up with didn't jibe with the Forward or the union for that matter - but to regurgitate innuendo and folderol and say "I'm sure it's true" is that journalism? I agree - if a union could place an ad in a major periodical and fill it with innuendo to the point that a corporation might decide its not cost effective to do battle on first amendment or other grounds and the union can get away with it, it’s a shonde - even if it’s only 50% accurate? what if people wrote a piece about Hazon that was only 50% accurate? I’m sure there’d be outrage and possibly an injunction or two - it’s just about double standards - why dontcha all go out to postville and tour the plant and talk to the workers - I know I did and the results I came up with didn’t jibe with the Forward or the union for that matter - but to regurgitate innuendo and folderol and say “I’m sure it’s true” is that journalism?

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