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	<title>Comments on: Beyond CSAs and Sustainable Meat Co-ops: How can our communities support us in eating sustainably and more cheaply</title>
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	<description>Jews, Food, and Contemporary Issues</description>
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		<title>By: Richard Schwartz</title>
		<link>http://jcarrot.org/beyond-csas-and-sustainable-meat/comment-page-1#comment-19520</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Schwartz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 22:08:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jcarrot.org/?p=9423#comment-19520</guid>
		<description>Kol hakavod for this valuable discussions.

As president of Jewish Vegetarians of North America, I respectfully urge the Jewish community to address the many moral issues related to our diets; to consider how plant-based diets are most consistent with Jewish mandates to preserve our health, treat animals with compassion, protect the environment, conserve natural resources, help hungry people, and seek and pursue peace; and to consider the devastating effects that the production and consumption of animal products have on human health and the environment.

For more information, please visit JewishVeg.com/Schwartz, where I have over 140 articles and 25 podcasts and please visit ASAcredDuty.com, where you can learn about and view our acclaimed documentary &quot;A Sacred Duty: Applying Jewish Values to Help Heal the World.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kol hakavod for this valuable discussions.</p>
<p>As president of Jewish Vegetarians of North America, I respectfully urge the Jewish community to address the many moral issues related to our diets; to consider how plant-based diets are most consistent with Jewish mandates to preserve our health, treat animals with compassion, protect the environment, conserve natural resources, help hungry people, and seek and pursue peace; and to consider the devastating effects that the production and consumption of animal products have on human health and the environment.</p>
<p>For more information, please visit <a href="http://JewishVeg.com/Schwartz," title="http://JewishVeg.com/Schwartz," target="_blank">JewishVeg.com/Schwartz,</a> where I have over 140 articles and 25 podcasts and please visit <a href="http://ASAcredDuty.com" title="http://ASAcredDuty.com" target="_blank">ASAcredDuty.com</a>, where you can learn about and view our acclaimed documentary &#8220;A Sacred Duty: Applying Jewish Values to Help Heal the World.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Croland</title>
		<link>http://jcarrot.org/beyond-csas-and-sustainable-meat/comment-page-1#comment-19507</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Croland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jcarrot.org/?p=9423#comment-19507</guid>
		<description>For the record, comment #3 appears to have been quoted verbatim from my blog post:

http://tinyurl.com/ykta2tt</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record, comment #3 appears to have been quoted verbatim from my blog post:</p>
<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/ykta2tt" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/ykta2tt</a></p>
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		<title>By: Beth at Upper West Side Mom</title>
		<link>http://jcarrot.org/beyond-csas-and-sustainable-meat/comment-page-1#comment-19494</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth at Upper West Side Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 12:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jcarrot.org/?p=9423#comment-19494</guid>
		<description>Neshaminy Valley Distributers is a great place to order your stuff in bulk. They deliver to the Philly, New Jersey and NYC metro area. There is a minimum of about $300 but you can split that with a neighbor. They don&#039;t do the internet so you have to call for a catalogue.

http://www.nvorganic.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neshaminy Valley Distributers is a great place to order your stuff in bulk. They deliver to the Philly, New Jersey and NYC metro area. There is a minimum of about $300 but you can split that with a neighbor. They don&#8217;t do the internet so you have to call for a catalogue.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nvorganic.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.nvorganic.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Judith Gottesman, MSW</title>
		<link>http://jcarrot.org/beyond-csas-and-sustainable-meat/comment-page-1#comment-19373</link>
		<dc:creator>Judith Gottesman, MSW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 07:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jcarrot.org/?p=9423#comment-19373</guid>
		<description>Jonathan Safran Foer&#039;s &#039;Against Meat&#039; in The New York Times Magazine
In &quot;The Food Issue&quot; of The New York Times Magazine, Jewish author Jonathan Safran Foer has an essay titled &quot;Against Meat.&quot; The article is adapted from his nonfiction book Eating Animals, which will be released on November 2.

Foer opens by discussing a chicken dish his bubbe used to make and the importance she put on eating. Toward the end, he says that raising his children vegetarian might mean that his family&#039;s &quot;primal story&quot; will &quot;have to change.&quot; &quot;Or will it?&quot; he asks. Foer concludes his essay:

    It wasn’t until I became a parent that I understood my grandmother’s cooking. The greatest chef who ever lived wasn’t preparing food, but humans. I’m thinking of those Saturday afternoons at her kitchen table, just the two of us — black bread in the glowing toaster, a humming refrigerator that couldn’t be seen through its veil of family photographs. Over pumpernickel ends and Coke, she would tell me about her escape from Europe, the foods she had to eat and those she wouldn’t. It was the story of her life — “Listen to me,” she would plead — and I knew a vital lesson was being transmitted, even if I didn’t know, as a child, what that lesson was. I know, now, what it was.

    “We weren’t rich, but we always had enough. Thursday we baked bread, and challah and rolls, and they lasted the whole week. Friday we had pancakes. Shabbat we always had a chicken, and soup with noodles. You would go to the butcher and ask for a little more fat. The fattiest piece was the best piece. It wasn’t like now. We didn’t have refrigerators, but we had milk and cheese. We didn’t have every kind of vegetable, but we had enough. The things that you have here and take for granted. . . . But we were happy. We didn’t know any better. And we took what we had for granted, too.

    “Then it all changed. During the war it was hell on earth, and I had nothing. I left my family, you know. I was always running, day and night, because the Germans were always right behind me. If you stopped, you died. There was never enough food. I became sicker and sicker from not eating, and I’m not just talking about being skin and bones. I had sores all over my body. It became difficult to move. I wasn’t too good to eat from a garbage can. I ate the parts others wouldn’t eat. If you helped yourself, you could survive. I took whatever I could find. I ate things I wouldn’t tell you about.

    “Even at the worst times, there were good people, too. Someone taught me to tie the ends of my pants so I could fill the legs with any potatoes I was able to steal. I walked miles and miles like that, because you never knew when you would be lucky again. Someone gave me a little rice, once, and I traveled two days to a market and traded it for some soap, and then traveled to another market and traded the soap for some beans. You had to have luck and intuition.

    “The worst it got was near the end. A lot of people died right at the end, and I didn’t know if I could make it another day. A farmer, a Russian, God bless him, he saw my condition, and he went into his house and came out with a piece of meat for me.”

    “He saved your life.”

    “I didn’t eat it.”

    “You didn’t eat it?”

    “It was pork. I wouldn’t eat pork.”

    “Why?”

    “What do you mean why?”

    “What, because it wasn’t kosher?”

    “Of course.”

    “But not even to save your life?”
    “If nothing matters, there’s nothing to save.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan Safran Foer&#8217;s &#8216;Against Meat&#8217; in The New York Times Magazine<br />
In &#8220;The Food Issue&#8221; of The New York Times Magazine, Jewish author Jonathan Safran Foer has an essay titled &#8220;Against Meat.&#8221; The article is adapted from his nonfiction book Eating Animals, which will be released on November 2.</p>
<p>Foer opens by discussing a chicken dish his bubbe used to make and the importance she put on eating. Toward the end, he says that raising his children vegetarian might mean that his family&#8217;s &#8220;primal story&#8221; will &#8220;have to change.&#8221; &#8220;Or will it?&#8221; he asks. Foer concludes his essay:</p>
<p>    It wasn’t until I became a parent that I understood my grandmother’s cooking. The greatest chef who ever lived wasn’t preparing food, but humans. I’m thinking of those Saturday afternoons at her kitchen table, just the two of us — black bread in the glowing toaster, a humming refrigerator that couldn’t be seen through its veil of family photographs. Over pumpernickel ends and Coke, she would tell me about her escape from Europe, the foods she had to eat and those she wouldn’t. It was the story of her life — “Listen to me,” she would plead — and I knew a vital lesson was being transmitted, even if I didn’t know, as a child, what that lesson was. I know, now, what it was.</p>
<p>    “We weren’t rich, but we always had enough. Thursday we baked bread, and challah and rolls, and they lasted the whole week. Friday we had pancakes. Shabbat we always had a chicken, and soup with noodles. You would go to the butcher and ask for a little more fat. The fattiest piece was the best piece. It wasn’t like now. We didn’t have refrigerators, but we had milk and cheese. We didn’t have every kind of vegetable, but we had enough. The things that you have here and take for granted. . . . But we were happy. We didn’t know any better. And we took what we had for granted, too.</p>
<p>    “Then it all changed. During the war it was hell on earth, and I had nothing. I left my family, you know. I was always running, day and night, because the Germans were always right behind me. If you stopped, you died. There was never enough food. I became sicker and sicker from not eating, and I’m not just talking about being skin and bones. I had sores all over my body. It became difficult to move. I wasn’t too good to eat from a garbage can. I ate the parts others wouldn’t eat. If you helped yourself, you could survive. I took whatever I could find. I ate things I wouldn’t tell you about.</p>
<p>    “Even at the worst times, there were good people, too. Someone taught me to tie the ends of my pants so I could fill the legs with any potatoes I was able to steal. I walked miles and miles like that, because you never knew when you would be lucky again. Someone gave me a little rice, once, and I traveled two days to a market and traded it for some soap, and then traveled to another market and traded the soap for some beans. You had to have luck and intuition.</p>
<p>    “The worst it got was near the end. A lot of people died right at the end, and I didn’t know if I could make it another day. A farmer, a Russian, God bless him, he saw my condition, and he went into his house and came out with a piece of meat for me.”</p>
<p>    “He saved your life.”</p>
<p>    “I didn’t eat it.”</p>
<p>    “You didn’t eat it?”</p>
<p>    “It was pork. I wouldn’t eat pork.”</p>
<p>    “Why?”</p>
<p>    “What do you mean why?”</p>
<p>    “What, because it wasn’t kosher?”</p>
<p>    “Of course.”</p>
<p>    “But not even to save your life?”<br />
    “If nothing matters, there’s nothing to save.”</p>
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		<title>By: Judith Gottesman, MSW</title>
		<link>http://jcarrot.org/beyond-csas-and-sustainable-meat/comment-page-1#comment-19372</link>
		<dc:creator>Judith Gottesman, MSW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 07:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jcarrot.org/?p=9423#comment-19372</guid>
		<description>Recent study shows best way to eat kosher is not to eat animals:

Scientific Study Says Animals Feel Pain Following Shechita
For the sake of this post, I&#039;ll assume that the study&#039;s findings are accurate. I am not an animal welfare scientist and have not independently verified the results.

New Scientist reported yesterday that according to a new study, animals subjected to shechita (kosher slaughter) continue to feel pain after their throats are slit. &quot;I think our work is the best evidence yet that [Jewish and Muslim ritual slaughter is] painful,&quot; said Craig Johnson, who led the study at Massey University in New Zealand. New Scientist explained:

    The team first cut calves&#039; throats in a procedure matching that of Jewish and Muslim slaughter methods. They detected a pain signal lasting for up to 2 minutes after the incision. When their throats are cut, calves generally lose consciousness after 10 to 30 seconds, sometimes longer.

    The researchers then showed that the pain originates from cutting throat nerves, not from the loss of blood, suggesting the severed nerves send pain signals until the time of death. Finally, they stunned animals 5 seconds after incision and showed that this makes the pain signal disappear instantly.

A representative from Shechita U.K. dismissed the findings, saying that shechita acts in place of stunning and that animals lose consciousness 2 seconds after they are shechted. Feeling pain for up to 2 minutes and taking up to 30 seconds, or longer, to lose consciousness do not qualify as instantaneous death without suffering. It appears that the findings of this scientific study disprove the longstanding notion that shechita kills animals instantly without extended suffering. (Shechita&#039;s defenders oppose stunning because animals must be completely healthy at the time of their death in order for their meat to be considered kosher. Rendering them unconscious prior to killing them is viewed as making them less than completely healthy.)

In the U.S., animals are required under the Humane Slaughter Act to be stunned prior to slaughter so that they are rendered insensible to pain, but an exception is made for kosher and halal slaughter in order not to infringe on religious practice. In Europe, there have been numerous efforts to ban shechita (some of which have been successful) outright. The grounds for allowing shechita, as opposed to conventional slaughter with stunning, is that it is considered humane. Shechita was certainly less cruel than alternatives in Biblical times. Today, its defenders consider it humane and pain-free according to theological belief more so than empirical science.

In the kosher meat scandals of recent years, part of the debate over whether cruelty occurred centered on whether animals could still feel pain after they had been shechted. Did already shechted cows at AgriProcessors suffer when their throats were cut a second time and their esophagi and tracheas were ripped out? Were already shechted cows at AgriProcessors who were moving about and bellowing in apparent agony still able to feel pain? Were already shechted cows at Local Pride still sensible to pain when their throats were ripped into with metal hooks? Were already shechted cows in Uruguay in distress when they were hoisted in the air by one leg to bleed out and then had their heads, necks, and joints cut into? According to Johnson&#039;s study, it would appear that the answer is yes. This is far from an unprecedented view in the debate, but it is one that begs to be taken seriously because it is grounded in empirical science.

The ramifications of this study do not only apply to improper handling after the initial cut has been made, which can be avoided. The study casts a dark shadow on all shechita: It now seems that shechted animals inherently feel pain and suffer over an extended period of time, not just for a second or two after the cut of the knife.

On the one hand, it seems that slaughtering animals without stunning them does lead to pain and suffering, raising serious doubts over the humane reputation of kosher meat. On the other hand, legal bans on kosher slaughter would infringe on religious practice, are sometimes motivated in part by anti-Semitism, and unfairly single out one arguably cruel practice, at the expense of kosher-keeping Jews, when so very much is wrong with the practices of industrialized animal agriculture. Jewish Vegetarians of North America has stated that it has &quot;consistently opposed efforts to single out shechita for criticism,&quot; and as far as legal measures are concerned, I agree with that stance. What&#039;s a kosher-keeping Jew to do? There&#039;s really only one sure way to keep kosher and avoid causing animals the extended pain and suffering that now appear to be inherent to shechita: Don&#039;t eat meat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Recent study shows best way to eat kosher is not to eat animals:</p>
<p>Scientific Study Says Animals Feel Pain Following Shechita<br />
For the sake of this post, I&#8217;ll assume that the study&#8217;s findings are accurate. I am not an animal welfare scientist and have not independently verified the results.</p>
<p>New Scientist reported yesterday that according to a new study, animals subjected to shechita (kosher slaughter) continue to feel pain after their throats are slit. &#8220;I think our work is the best evidence yet that [Jewish and Muslim ritual slaughter is] painful,&#8221; said Craig Johnson, who led the study at Massey University in New Zealand. New Scientist explained:</p>
<p>    The team first cut calves&#8217; throats in a procedure matching that of Jewish and Muslim slaughter methods. They detected a pain signal lasting for up to 2 minutes after the incision. When their throats are cut, calves generally lose consciousness after 10 to 30 seconds, sometimes longer.</p>
<p>    The researchers then showed that the pain originates from cutting throat nerves, not from the loss of blood, suggesting the severed nerves send pain signals until the time of death. Finally, they stunned animals 5 seconds after incision and showed that this makes the pain signal disappear instantly.</p>
<p>A representative from Shechita U.K. dismissed the findings, saying that shechita acts in place of stunning and that animals lose consciousness 2 seconds after they are shechted. Feeling pain for up to 2 minutes and taking up to 30 seconds, or longer, to lose consciousness do not qualify as instantaneous death without suffering. It appears that the findings of this scientific study disprove the longstanding notion that shechita kills animals instantly without extended suffering. (Shechita&#8217;s defenders oppose stunning because animals must be completely healthy at the time of their death in order for their meat to be considered kosher. Rendering them unconscious prior to killing them is viewed as making them less than completely healthy.)</p>
<p>In the U.S., animals are required under the Humane Slaughter Act to be stunned prior to slaughter so that they are rendered insensible to pain, but an exception is made for kosher and halal slaughter in order not to infringe on religious practice. In Europe, there have been numerous efforts to ban shechita (some of which have been successful) outright. The grounds for allowing shechita, as opposed to conventional slaughter with stunning, is that it is considered humane. Shechita was certainly less cruel than alternatives in Biblical times. Today, its defenders consider it humane and pain-free according to theological belief more so than empirical science.</p>
<p>In the kosher meat scandals of recent years, part of the debate over whether cruelty occurred centered on whether animals could still feel pain after they had been shechted. Did already shechted cows at AgriProcessors suffer when their throats were cut a second time and their esophagi and tracheas were ripped out? Were already shechted cows at AgriProcessors who were moving about and bellowing in apparent agony still able to feel pain? Were already shechted cows at Local Pride still sensible to pain when their throats were ripped into with metal hooks? Were already shechted cows in Uruguay in distress when they were hoisted in the air by one leg to bleed out and then had their heads, necks, and joints cut into? According to Johnson&#8217;s study, it would appear that the answer is yes. This is far from an unprecedented view in the debate, but it is one that begs to be taken seriously because it is grounded in empirical science.</p>
<p>The ramifications of this study do not only apply to improper handling after the initial cut has been made, which can be avoided. The study casts a dark shadow on all shechita: It now seems that shechted animals inherently feel pain and suffer over an extended period of time, not just for a second or two after the cut of the knife.</p>
<p>On the one hand, it seems that slaughtering animals without stunning them does lead to pain and suffering, raising serious doubts over the humane reputation of kosher meat. On the other hand, legal bans on kosher slaughter would infringe on religious practice, are sometimes motivated in part by anti-Semitism, and unfairly single out one arguably cruel practice, at the expense of kosher-keeping Jews, when so very much is wrong with the practices of industrialized animal agriculture. Jewish Vegetarians of North America has stated that it has &#8220;consistently opposed efforts to single out shechita for criticism,&#8221; and as far as legal measures are concerned, I agree with that stance. What&#8217;s a kosher-keeping Jew to do? There&#8217;s really only one sure way to keep kosher and avoid causing animals the extended pain and suffering that now appear to be inherent to shechita: Don&#8217;t eat meat.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie Steinberg</title>
		<link>http://jcarrot.org/beyond-csas-and-sustainable-meat/comment-page-1#comment-19371</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie Steinberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 04:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jcarrot.org/?p=9423#comment-19371</guid>
		<description>I love this post. What a great idea. 

Several ideas come to mind, including:

1) Organizing a kosher wine co-op.  
2) If the shul has land (not much required), creating a community garden, where members can have plots an grow their own/share harvests.
3) A dairy co-op would be great.  I would love to get fresh supplies, and also the prices in this area have been particularly high lately.  
4) Create a synagogue cookbook with healthy recipes (provided by congregants) to encourage people to prepare their own food.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love this post. What a great idea. </p>
<p>Several ideas come to mind, including:</p>
<p>1) Organizing a kosher wine co-op.<br />
2) If the shul has land (not much required), creating a community garden, where members can have plots an grow their own/share harvests.<br />
3) A dairy co-op would be great.  I would love to get fresh supplies, and also the prices in this area have been particularly high lately.<br />
4) Create a synagogue cookbook with healthy recipes (provided by congregants) to encourage people to prepare their own food.</p>
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