Comments on: Chinese Takeout in the New Yorker http://jcarrot.org/chinese-takeout-in-the-new-yorker Jews, Food, and Contemporary Issues Mon, 06 Feb 2012 20:20:42 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Chris_B http://jcarrot.org/chinese-takeout-in-the-new-yorker/comment-page-1#comment-13450 Chris_B Wed, 14 Jan 2009 06:48:42 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/chinese-takeout-in-the-new-yorker/#comment-13450 Tamar, "I didn’t meant to imply that the people supervising the hashgachot are untrustworthy" - but thats exactly what you did in the header to this post. I'm personally alot more inclined to call out any chuckling due to attempts to ease any potential social friction. The perception of conflict free or friendly relations in business is very important in almost all of Asia. You followup with "or even that certified kosher food really is kosher. It might not be." So the point of this post was what? To show us an article or to get all snarky about the hashgachots who deal with things I've bet you've never dealt with in your life. Of course I assume a great deal there, but I'm unable to find any evidence that you've had to deal with extensive business travel in Asia or kashruth inspections personally. Besides being a skeptical individual, why should I take your sly accusations seriously? @3 Jo, Funny story but sounds apocryphal. Minor point, dont think weve ever had a "chief rabbi" here in Japan, heck at any one time we'd be lucky to have even a handfull of rabbis in the whole country. I wasnt part of the community here during his time but I hear he was a great guy. Tamar,

“I didn’t meant to imply that the people supervising the hashgachot are untrustworthy” – but thats exactly what you did in the header to this post.

I’m personally alot more inclined to call out any chuckling due to attempts to ease any potential social friction. The perception of conflict free or friendly relations in business is very important in almost all of Asia.

You followup with “or even that certified kosher food really is kosher. It might not be.” So the point of this post was what? To show us an article or to get all snarky about the hashgachots who deal with things I’ve bet you’ve never dealt with in your life.

Of course I assume a great deal there, but I’m unable to find any evidence that you’ve had to deal with extensive business travel in Asia or kashruth inspections personally. Besides being a skeptical individual, why should I take your sly accusations seriously?

@3 Jo,

Funny story but sounds apocryphal. Minor point, dont think weve ever had a “chief rabbi” here in Japan, heck at any one time we’d be lucky to have even a handfull of rabbis in the whole country. I wasnt part of the community here during his time but I hear he was a great guy.

]]> By: jjj kkk http://jcarrot.org/chinese-takeout-in-the-new-yorker/comment-page-1#comment-13432 jjj kkk Mon, 12 Jan 2009 01:32:15 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/chinese-takeout-in-the-new-yorker/#comment-13432 With any food manufactured out of one's control there is a chance that it is indeed not kosher. Indeed there have been many scandles w respect to k. especially meat. Meat is vulnerable because of the high cost of K. meat compared to non k. look alikes which are much cheaper. If the purpose of certification is to reduce the chance (probability) of consuming something that is not kosher, than might it not be true that a non-certified vegan product has a lower chance (probability) of being not kosher than a certified kosher product? Convince me that eating meat or in a kosher restauraunt is more kosher than eating a vegan product (manufactured at a facility of sufficient size & prominence that it is very very likely to have been cleaned and the equipment sterilized prior to use for the vegan product) With any food manufactured out of one’s control there is a chance that it is indeed not

kosher.

Indeed there have been many scandles w respect to k. especially meat.

Meat is vulnerable because of the high cost of K. meat compared to non k. look alikes

which are much cheaper.

If the purpose of certification is to reduce the chance (probability) of consuming

something that is not kosher, than might it not be true that a non-certified vegan product

has a lower chance (probability) of being not kosher than a certified kosher product?

Convince me that eating meat or in a kosher restauraunt is more kosher than eating a vegan

product (manufactured at a facility of sufficient size & prominence that it is very very

likely to have been cleaned and the equipment sterilized prior to use for the vegan

product)

]]> By: Jo http://jcarrot.org/chinese-takeout-in-the-new-yorker/comment-page-1#comment-13358 Jo Wed, 07 Jan 2009 22:45:13 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/chinese-takeout-in-the-new-yorker/#comment-13358 This doesn't address Tamar's point, but the article reminded me of a lecture by Rabbi Marvin Tokayer, who served for a time as the chief rabbi of Japan in the 1970's or so. Rabbi Tokayer was once visited in Tokyo by several Japanese representatives of the Ito Ham Company. The rabbi had no idea why these men would wish to see him, but he politely invited them in to talk. The gentlemen explained that their firm produced the highest quality pork products in Japan. Their firm had an excellent reputation, and was well run. Rabbi Tokayer, still puzzled, nodded and said that he was delighted to hear this. The gentlemen then said that they understood that kosher meant that a food was pure, clean, of the highest quality. Rabbi Tokayer, figuring that it would be simpler to use this gist of an explanation rather than go into the whole megillah, agreed. Not surprisingly, the gentlemen then asked "Rabbi, we would like to have you declare our ham kosher." This doesn’t address Tamar’s point, but the article reminded me of a lecture by Rabbi Marvin Tokayer, who served for a time as the chief rabbi of Japan in the 1970′s or so. Rabbi Tokayer was once visited in Tokyo by several Japanese representatives of the Ito Ham Company. The rabbi had no idea why these men would wish to see him, but he politely invited them in to talk. The gentlemen explained that their firm produced the highest quality pork products in Japan. Their firm had an excellent reputation, and was well run. Rabbi Tokayer, still puzzled, nodded and said that he was delighted to hear this.

The gentlemen then said that they understood that kosher meant that a food was pure, clean, of the highest quality. Rabbi Tokayer, figuring that it would be simpler to use this gist of an explanation rather than go into the whole megillah, agreed.

Not surprisingly, the gentlemen then asked “Rabbi, we would like to have you declare our ham kosher.”

]]> By: Tamar Fox http://jcarrot.org/chinese-takeout-in-the-new-yorker/comment-page-1#comment-13357 Tamar Fox Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:35:43 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/chinese-takeout-in-the-new-yorker/#comment-13357 Hi Yael, Maybe I wasn't as clear as I could have been. I didn't meant to imply that the people supervising the hashgachot are untrustworthy, or that they don't deserve to do any laughing. WHat stood out for me in the piece was how often everyone involved seemed to surrender to the idea of "we're not really sure what's going on here but we'll just smile and move on." In some social situations of course it's necessary to respond like this, and I imagine that it's necessary for the mashgichim to get their jobs done, but to me it speaks to a larger problem of us really not knowing what goes into our food. I don't think being a locavore is the right choice for everyone (I certainly can't say that I am one) but I think the ideas behind kashrut demand that we be more involved in our own food lives than most of us are. The article depicts the two mashgichim as good guys, and I believe that many people working in the kashrut industry are. But I still think that there's a lot of blind trust and smiling like fools, too. And I don't think that's a good thing. Best, Tamar Hi Yael,

Maybe I wasn’t as clear as I could have been. I didn’t meant to imply that the people supervising the hashgachot are untrustworthy, or that they don’t deserve to do any laughing. WHat stood out for me in the piece was how often everyone involved seemed to surrender to the idea of “we’re not really sure what’s going on here but we’ll just smile and move on.” In some social situations of course it’s necessary to respond like this, and I imagine that it’s necessary for the mashgichim to get their jobs done, but to me it speaks to a larger problem of us really not knowing what goes into our food. I don’t think being a locavore is the right choice for everyone (I certainly can’t say that I am one) but I think the ideas behind kashrut demand that we be more involved in our own food lives than most of us are.

The article depicts the two mashgichim as good guys, and I believe that many people working in the kashrut industry are. But I still think that there’s a lot of blind trust and smiling like fools, too. And I don’t think that’s a good thing.

Best,
Tamar

]]> By: Yael http://jcarrot.org/chinese-takeout-in-the-new-yorker/comment-page-1#comment-13355 Yael Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:27:41 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/chinese-takeout-in-the-new-yorker/#comment-13355 Dear Tamar, I read your post with great interest because my father in law is very involved with South African Kashrut and often travels to the China and dozens of other locations. I couldn't read the entire New Yorker article but from what I understood from your post you are disturbed most by the fact that at the meetings there is a lot of laughing. You seem to imply that the mashgichim really aren't doing their job, are out for the money and aren't being responsible about food. I see the issue from a personal perspective rather differently. It's not easy to travel away from home and family on long flights in foreign countries. I see that it takes a toll on my father in law. Maybe the first time he went to Singapore it was exciting but now it has lost its glitter and its hard work. Despite what the article implies the pay is not excellent, I doubt the figures quoted go directly to the mashgiach, they are probably to the kashrut granting organization. Why does my father in law do it? Because it is really important to him that Jews in South Africa can keep kosher easily. I see the passion he has for it, how he researches a species of fish he believes to be kosher in opposition to other rabbis. He is willing to travel to Zimbabwe and towns with tiny Jewish communities in South Africa to make sure they have kosher meat, that he's shechted with his own hands. Whenever I have a question about a hashgacha I can call him and he knows the person behind the hashgacha. There are many honest, caring, ethical people behind those symbols. I understand that for a locavore the idea of eating food from China is close to sin. I can't speak for all the mashgichim in the world, only one but I know that he is responsible, ethical, extremely serious and professional. The sentence "Everyone is smiling and chuckling and looking jolly and pious, but no one really knows what’s happening." is the exact opposite of who I know him to be. kol tuv Yael Maizels Dear Tamar,
I read your post with great interest because my father in law is very involved with South African Kashrut and often travels to the China and dozens of other locations. I couldn’t read the entire New Yorker article but from what I understood from your post you are disturbed most by the fact that at the meetings there is a lot of laughing. You seem to imply that the mashgichim really aren’t doing their job, are out for the money and aren’t being responsible about food. I see the issue from a personal perspective rather differently.

It’s not easy to travel away from home and family on long flights in foreign countries. I see that it takes a toll on my father in law. Maybe the first time he went to Singapore it was exciting but now it has lost its glitter and its hard work. Despite what the article implies the pay is not excellent, I doubt the figures quoted go directly to the mashgiach, they are probably to the kashrut granting organization.

Why does my father in law do it? Because it is really important to him that Jews in South Africa can keep kosher easily. I see the passion he has for it, how he researches a species of fish he believes to be kosher in opposition to other rabbis. He is willing to travel to Zimbabwe and towns with tiny Jewish communities in South Africa to make sure they have kosher meat, that he’s shechted with his own hands. Whenever I have a question about a hashgacha I can call him and he knows the person behind the hashgacha. There are many honest, caring, ethical people behind those symbols.

I understand that for a locavore the idea of eating food from China is close to sin. I can’t speak for all the mashgichim in the world, only one but I know that he is responsible, ethical, extremely serious and professional. The sentence “Everyone is smiling and chuckling and looking jolly and pious, but no one really knows what’s happening.” is the exact opposite of who I know him to be.

kol tuv
Yael Maizels

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