Comments on: Digest This: A Flood of Hearsay around Agriprocessors

By: Devora Kimelman-Block

Devora Kimelman-Block — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:28:26 +0000

My goal is to create and promote a sustainable food system. (See my website: http://www.kolfoods.com/why). Rubashkins is certainly not the only problem (although according to the meatpackers union, they are one of the worst in the industry). We need to get rid of unethical systems nationally. We also need to get rid of confinement factory farms which are urgently problematic on many levels. There are plenty of ethical, sustainable alternatives that are also high producing.

Most importantly, we need to eat a lot less meat. It should not be an assumed part of our daily breakfast, lunch and dinner. It should be a once a week treat – which was the case until very recent history. Leah is correct that the outcry from kosher consumers that they won’t have access to their (unsustainable, unethical) meat is very disturbing. If we aren’t going to be vegetarians, we should at a minimum make sure that the meat we are eating is sustainable and ethical.

(BTW: Grassfed meat is also really delicious – talk about making meat a treat.)

By: Rabbi Shmuel

Rabbi Shmuel — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:27:51 +0000

Devorah, why don’t you just use the entire union laundry list – you know, when these things started coming out, first environmental violations, then alleged cruelty (and differing minds have differing opinions of the PETA video, myself included no stranger to cattle or shechita) then alleged employment violations, then alleged anti-trust violations, I said to my wife “color me paranoid, but it almost looks like a conspiracy”

Then I saw that Agri was in fact the subject of a corporate campaign design to besmear and beat them into submission. That doesn’t give them a clean bill of health in my book by any stretch of the imagination, but there certainly are forces, each with their own little hidden agendae afoot.

on the merits – “1) The Postville public water desalinazation process has to be overhauled because of the huge amount of unprocessed environmental waste Rubashkins is dumping into the public water system.”

you’re presenting this as a news – how recently did this happen? Since then what has happened?

You and I agree that their model is not sustainable. But it’s less than honest to say there are not other forces at play. that’s all

By: Devora Kimelman-Block

Devora Kimelman-Block — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:00:14 +0000

Perhaps you don’t like the term “proven”. If Rubashkin’s publically admits to something, that is proof enough for me.

Two more bits (don’t have to do with worker treatment):
1) The Postville public water desalinazation process has to be overhauled because of the huge amount of unprocessed environmental waste Rubashkins is dumping into the public water system.
2) The PETA video of extreme animal cruelty speaks for itself.

By: Rabbi Shmuel

Rabbi Shmuel — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:07:17 +0000

DKB – As to your “proven truths” did they admit wrongdoing in the OSHA matter or is that an inference you are drawing? Typically when faced with a violation of that sort with monetary penalties at stake, a company may simply find it more cost effective to settle than to proceed (have you saeen how much lawyers earn these days?). BTW the “settlement” was for pennies on the dollar which makes me – as an attorney – question the strrength of the prosecutor’s case.
As to #2 I will concede that it bordered on legal malpractice for them to make that assertion in their opposition papers (but by the same token it could be claimed that they alleged the illegal status of the workers as a strategic tactic to combat the unionization) doesn’t make it a “proven fact” people can plead in the alternative – eg “I didn’t kill him – I was in LA at the time but even if I did – it was self defense. (For the record, I pobably wouldn’t have aserted that as a defense but hey, there are all types:)

By: Devora Kimelman-Block

Devora Kimelman-Block — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:26:57 +0000

Two bits of proven truth:
1) The Rubashkin family just settled a major OSHA violation. They have admitted that in the past 3 years there were safety concerns at the plant by so doing.
2) Rubashkin’s arguement (while in court) for not allowing workers to unionize was that they shouldn’t be allowed to join a union because they were illegal.

By: Stephen Mendelsohn

Stephen Mendelsohn — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:06:34 +0000

BS”D

Lilian — Unproven? What does one call 18 minors arrested working at the plant in the May 12 Federal raid, some as young as 13? How many bar-mitzvah age kids look like adults? There are plenty of “facts on the ground” here (remember all of the PETA videos of extreme animal cruelty, or the Rubashkins’ behavior in the Cherry Hill Textiles case?) that make it impossible to excuse AgriProcessors with the claim of dan l’kaf z’chut. The lashon ha-ra here is mostly to’elet (for a purpose) — we need to know whether this company is ethically kosher to buy from, otherwise we may be aiding and abetting an aveirah. If Agri wants to regain the trust of the Jewish community, it needs to stop hiding behind halachic walls and do genuine teshuva — admit any and all behavior not consistent with US law or halacha and begin to acquire a track record of compliance.

By: lilian

lilian — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:02:43 +0000

The fact people may continue to purchase Rubashkin’s meat does not make them ethically blind or ambiguous- it makes them conscious of the media’s ability to overexaggerate what it desires to emphasize and skeptical to what it is that they are hearing. Just because there are unproven allegations against Agriprocessors does not mean that people have to run away from them. As far as we know, they have done nothing wrong- the immigrants had fake work information that Agriprocessors was not legally supposed investigate. There is no proof that there was any other kind of fraudulent activity, and there is certainly no evidence that the meat is not kosher. Why would a religious family want to feed their fellow nation unkosher meat? I know- it makes no sense! In fact, why would we believe half of the things that show up in the media, and how easy is it to speak loshon harah and tarnish another person’s name?Extremely.

It is not fair to not give the Rubashkins the benefit of the doubt. I have been eating their meat for years, and it has been fantastic. I have always gone by the saying- believe nothing that you hear and only half of what you see- and I have yet to call myself ethically blind.

By: Shmarya

Shmarya — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:06:26 +0000

Please. The JTA just released Mandel's own email where he says, "There is no question that much of what is said is loshon hora and r’chilus…" You might also look at this and this.

By: shev

shev — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:51:53 +0000

Humankind really is amazing.

Agriprocessors has experienced hideous publicity, yet most people I’ve spoken to (quite a few) just don’t care, and could the meat keep coming, please?

Of course I agree with your bottom line, Leah. Please keep on informing and educating us masses with content-driven opinion!

By: Leah Koenig

Leah Koenig — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:36:57 +0000

Shev – You are correct, by their nature blogs do have a tendency to blur information with opinion (so does all journalism, by the way – whether or not we like to admit it). I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, necessarily.

In the end, each individual will make his/her own decisions about Agriprocessors – and those decisions will be as much based on information as on opinion and what they want to believe. The point of my post above, was not to comment specifically on Rabbi Mandel’s words, but on what this whole situation around them indicates – that, as I wrote:

“a significant portion of the Jewish community is fairly desperate to get “ethically-blind-kosher-meat-eating-as-usual” back on track.”

And that, in my opinion, is a shame.