Comments on: Eat Justice http://jcarrot.org/eat-justice/ Jews, Food, and Contemporary Issues Sat, 06 Sep 2008 06:37:57 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.2 By: Rabbi Shmuel http://jcarrot.org/eat-justice/#comment-2020 Rabbi Shmuel Fri, 10 Aug 2007 15:56:10 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/eat-justice/#comment-2020 Leah - I know he does, but I suspect that the potential exists for him to be a victim of his own success. Politically while he may very well be sincere and I have no reason to doubt that he has made kashrut a cornerstone of his rabbinacy, his battle cry is getting picked up by the "Vegan - good, agriprocessors - bad" bleaters forcing an understandable kneejerk, wagon circling reaction in the camps that see themselves -rightly or wrongly - under siege. How does that better the situation? Ironically it used to be that many Conservative were at least kosher in the home - now as you mention, the trend seems to be "my temple is kosher" hey, the slope gets slippery. There's a complex dynamic at work and I think that change will come primarily from within and not from those who don't share R Allen's passion for all things kosher. We actually got Agriprocessor to consider generating energy from fat and tallow on site (which they are now doing) as both a cost savings measure and one with positive environmental footprints. I don't see the vegan boycott of Aaron's having deep consequences. Let me ask you - if you ran a glatt kosher meat processing facility, do you want to be told how to run your business by someone to whom eating a snail or a clam is more important than serving genuine kosher food to a dear friend? You tell me. BTW I wasn't referring to him about the seminar - I am aware that he too has been out to Iowa several times - I was referring to last year's food conference presentation on kosher slaughter - sorry if I wasn't clear. Leah - I know he does, but I suspect that the potential exists for him to be a victim of his own success. Politically while he may very well be sincere and I have no reason to doubt that he has made kashrut a cornerstone of his rabbinacy, his battle cry is getting picked up by the “Vegan - good, agriprocessors - bad” bleaters forcing an understandable kneejerk, wagon circling reaction in the camps that see themselves -rightly or wrongly - under siege. How does that better the situation? Ironically it used to be that many Conservative were at least kosher in the home - now as you mention, the trend seems to be “my temple is kosher” hey, the slope gets slippery. There’s a complex dynamic at work and I think that change will come primarily from within and not from those who don’t share R Allen’s passion for all things kosher. We actually got Agriprocessor to consider generating energy from fat and tallow on site (which they are now doing) as both a cost savings measure and one with positive environmental footprints. I don’t see the vegan boycott of Aaron’s having deep consequences. Let me ask you - if you ran a glatt kosher meat processing facility, do you want to be told how to run your business by someone to whom eating a snail or a clam is more important than serving genuine kosher food to a dear friend? You tell me.
BTW I wasn’t referring to him about the seminar - I am aware that he too has been out to Iowa several times - I was referring to last year’s food conference presentation on kosher slaughter - sorry if I wasn’t clear.

]]> By: Leah Koenig http://jcarrot.org/eat-justice/#comment-2019 Leah Koenig Fri, 10 Aug 2007 14:42:57 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/eat-justice/#comment-2019 Hi Shmuel, Thanks for your response - I totally hear what you're saying. But I think what Rabbi Allen and co. is doing with hechsher tzedek is different from the usual "eco-kosher" stuff for two reasons. First, Rabbi Allen does practice traditional kashrut, and has made kashrut a central part of his rabbinate since he started 22 years ago. Even though he is working within the Conservative movement (where many synagogues keep kosher while members do not necessarily keep it in their homes), he is definitely "playing the game," and "knows the rules." His argument is that it's a shame that some people - even traditional keepers of kashrut - are turning away from the halacha because they can't justify eating foods that are "unethical" in a myriad of other ways. Hechsher tzedek is not proposing to rewrite or override the traditional rules of kashrut, but to assert that Judaism also has a lot of mandates (often neglected) towards worker safety, kindness to animals etc. - and that these should also be considered when Jews think about what is "fit" to eat. The second piece is - he and his team didn't just watch a PETA video. They visited Agriprocessors several times (fortunately, Iowa is not too far from Minnesota!), and have been in conversation with them throughout this process. Anyway - your points are both right on, but although I think Hechsher Tzedek still needs to be developed, I think it's really coming from the right place - including respecting halacha. Hi Shmuel,

Thanks for your response - I totally hear what you’re saying. But I think what Rabbi Allen and co. is doing with hechsher tzedek is different from the usual “eco-kosher” stuff for two reasons.

First, Rabbi Allen does practice traditional kashrut, and has made kashrut a central part of his rabbinate since he started 22 years ago. Even though he is working within the Conservative movement (where many synagogues keep kosher while members do not necessarily keep it in their homes), he is definitely “playing the game,” and “knows the rules.” His argument is that it’s a shame that some people - even traditional keepers of kashrut - are turning away from the halacha because they can’t justify eating foods that are “unethical” in a myriad of other ways. Hechsher tzedek is not proposing to rewrite or override the traditional rules of kashrut, but to assert that Judaism also has a lot of mandates (often neglected) towards worker safety, kindness to animals etc. - and that these should also be considered when Jews think about what is “fit” to eat.

The second piece is - he and his team didn’t just watch a PETA video. They visited Agriprocessors several times (fortunately, Iowa is not too far from Minnesota!), and have been in conversation with them throughout this process.

Anyway - your points are both right on, but although I think Hechsher Tzedek still needs to be developed, I think it’s really coming from the right place - including respecting halacha.

]]> By: Rabbi Shmuel http://jcarrot.org/eat-justice/#comment-2017 Rabbi Shmuel Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:31:45 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/eat-justice/#comment-2017 "R. Tannenbaum clearly doesn’t understand that Hecsher Tzedek, and all of Rabbi Allen’s work, is focused on precisely the opposite goal: turning people on to kashrut" Leah, do you really believe that? I'm certainly no fan of Gershom Tannenbaum, but can you blame him for being skeptical? It's like the old joke of the pope speaking out against birth control and the people grumbling - "you-a no playa de game, you-a no maka de rules" How receptive would you like the Orthodox to be to having definitions of things like kashrus and mikva rewritten by people who don't keep these mitzvos but who co-opt them and recreate them in their own fashion? I'm not asking you to agree with him but at least acknowledge where he's coming from. While Gershon may not know enough about eco-kashrus as an outsider, I certainly do, and while certain aspects may in fact be beneficial all around, its hardly a 100% altruistic endeavor. How is he to know where the line is drawn as to who is sincere and who's looking to rewrite the Torah? What would his response be to the suggestion of using pigs to compost at Freedman (pigs by the way make excellent compost - it's just that there are social, cultural and halachic taboos against it) when I voiced those objections I was told "thats davka (precisely) why we want to do it! Am I being paranoid? I think not. Were he to look at the programs for the retreats and see workshops like "challah making with a twist" (wink wink, nod, nod) or "the threats and thrills of mixing up the species" what should his reaction be? So understandably in that world, many babies unfortunately get discarded along with much bathwater. Agenda bundling has that unfortunate effect. I spent 2 days at Agriprocessors last year inspecting operations and speaking to workers. Who gives the seminar on the evils of industrial kosher production? someone who saw a snippet of PETA footage and who coincidentally is starting a grass roots grass fed beef coop. What does that tell you? There's room for change all around but people should be upfront with their agendas. At least "yikes" was much milder than many other responses:) “R. Tannenbaum clearly doesn’t understand that Hecsher Tzedek, and all of Rabbi Allen’s work, is focused on precisely the opposite goal: turning people on to kashrut”
Leah, do you really believe that? I’m certainly no fan of Gershom Tannenbaum, but can you blame him for being skeptical? It’s like the old joke of the pope speaking out against birth control and the people grumbling - “you-a no playa de game, you-a no maka de rules” How receptive would you like the Orthodox to be to having definitions of things like kashrus and mikva rewritten by people who don’t keep these mitzvos but who co-opt them and recreate them in their own fashion? I’m not asking you to agree with him but at least acknowledge where he’s coming from. While Gershon may not know enough about eco-kashrus as an outsider, I certainly do, and while certain aspects may in fact be beneficial all around, its hardly a 100% altruistic endeavor. How is he to know where the line is drawn as to who is sincere and who’s looking to rewrite the Torah? What would his response be to the suggestion of using pigs to compost at Freedman (pigs by the way make excellent compost - it’s just that there are social, cultural and halachic taboos against it) when I voiced those objections I was told “thats davka (precisely) why we want to do it! Am I being paranoid? I think not. Were he to look at the programs for the retreats and see workshops like “challah making with a twist” (wink wink, nod, nod) or “the threats and thrills of mixing up the species” what should his reaction be? So understandably in that world, many babies unfortunately get discarded along with much bathwater. Agenda bundling has that unfortunate effect. I spent 2 days at Agriprocessors last year inspecting operations and speaking to workers. Who gives the seminar on the evils of industrial kosher production? someone who saw a snippet of PETA footage and who coincidentally is starting a grass roots grass fed beef coop. What does that tell you? There’s room for change all around but people should be upfront with their agendas. At least “yikes” was much milder than many other responses:)

]]> By: Suzanne Bring http://jcarrot.org/eat-justice/#comment-1971 Suzanne Bring Wed, 08 Aug 2007 14:42:34 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/eat-justice/#comment-1971 In most parts of the country, you cannot buy a kosher free range organic chicken. And, by the way, just because it's free range and organic doesn't mean that the workers have good training or adequate wages or health benefits. And this isn't just about meat, but about the full range of kosher food. How about the truck drivers who deliver kosher baked goods to stores? How about the line workers in vegetable canneries? In most parts of the country, you cannot buy a kosher free range organic chicken. And, by the way, just because it’s free range and organic doesn’t mean that the workers have good training or adequate wages or health benefits.

And this isn’t just about meat, but about the full range of kosher food. How about the truck drivers who deliver kosher baked goods to stores? How about the line workers in vegetable canneries?

]]> By: Avi http://jcarrot.org/eat-justice/#comment-1950 Avi Mon, 06 Aug 2007 23:32:54 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/eat-justice/#comment-1950 <i>“I don’t want people to say, ‘I’d rather buy a free-range chicken than a kosher chicken,’” Rabbi Allen said. “There shouldn’t [have to] be that split.”</i> Which is why consumers are able to buy a kosher chicken that has organic/free-range certification. If he wants to lobby more kosher companies to produce free-range chickens kol-hakavod, but it's not a kashrut issue. Nor is it the job of the Conservative movement to enforce free-range labeling when it falls under the FDA/FTC. “I don’t want people to say, ‘I’d rather buy a free-range chicken than a kosher chicken,’” Rabbi Allen said. “There shouldn’t [have to] be that split.”

Which is why consumers are able to buy a kosher chicken that has organic/free-range certification. If he wants to lobby more kosher companies to produce free-range chickens kol-hakavod, but it’s not a kashrut issue. Nor is it the job of the Conservative movement to enforce free-range labeling when it falls under the FDA/FTC.

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