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	<title>Comments on: Is it a Bris Without Bagels? Or, Halacha vs. Environmentalism</title>
	<link>http://jcarrot.org/is-it-a-bris-without-bagels-or-halacha-vs-environmentalism/</link>
	<description>Jews, Food, and Contemporary Issues</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:12:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: jp</title>
		<link>http://jcarrot.org/is-it-a-bris-without-bagels-or-halacha-vs-environmentalism/#comment-210</link>
		<dc:creator>jp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Feb 2007 21:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://jcarrot.org/is-it-a-bris-without-bagels-or-halacha-vs-environmentalism/#comment-210</guid>
		<description>Hey Naf - Nice job! I very much enjoyed your article and the questions that you raised, particularly the ones about the value of change in the tradition. 

The Orthodoxy, I think, plays an important role in keeping track of what we've learned and where we've been.  And really its our long memory and these fences and traditions that allow us to remain Jewish (my father was a wandering aramean. he went down...). and what we have is unique and worth protecting. Without anyone taking a hard line it would be easy for us to drift, accepting new practices and mores too easily and eventually losing track of what we had and where we came from. Don't disregard anything because the it is unknown the value of each mitzvah (pirke avoth, yes?). 
 
 - 
 
The Conservative movement allows people to drive to Shul on Shabos, and my old Rabbi once argued that this is one of the biggest mistakes the movement has made - that the decision has lead to the dispersal of Jewish neighborhoods and the breakup of community.  Seemingly harmless changes in halakah can make big trouble.
 
But this Orthodox steadfastness causes its own problems.  When the feminist movement came with its list of true grievances it wasn't the Orthodoxy who answered.  The pressure pushed upwards through the movements and only now is Orthodoxy starting to address the question. I say that without the steps the other movements made the Orthodoxy would not address the question at all.

Every Pesach my family reads the story of the four children.  Every year someone in my family or amongst our guests has to object to the response to the wicked child (set his teeth on edge?! what is this?) Both are important maybe.  I wouldn't erase the bit, but would be irresponsible to let it go unchallenged too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Naf - Nice job! I very much enjoyed your article and the questions that you raised, particularly the ones about the value of change in the tradition. </p>
<p>The Orthodoxy, I think, plays an important role in keeping track of what we&#8217;ve learned and where we&#8217;ve been.  And really its our long memory and these fences and traditions that allow us to remain Jewish (my father was a wandering aramean. he went down&#8230;). and what we have is unique and worth protecting. Without anyone taking a hard line it would be easy for us to drift, accepting new practices and mores too easily and eventually losing track of what we had and where we came from. Don&#8217;t disregard anything because the it is unknown the value of each mitzvah (pirke avoth, yes?). </p>
<p> - </p>
<p>The Conservative movement allows people to drive to Shul on Shabos, and my old Rabbi once argued that this is one of the biggest mistakes the movement has made - that the decision has lead to the dispersal of Jewish neighborhoods and the breakup of community.  Seemingly harmless changes in halakah can make big trouble.</p>
<p>But this Orthodox steadfastness causes its own problems.  When the feminist movement came with its list of true grievances it wasn&#8217;t the Orthodoxy who answered.  The pressure pushed upwards through the movements and only now is Orthodoxy starting to address the question. I say that without the steps the other movements made the Orthodoxy would not address the question at all.</p>
<p>Every Pesach my family reads the story of the four children.  Every year someone in my family or amongst our guests has to object to the response to the wicked child (set his teeth on edge?! what is this?) Both are important maybe.  I wouldn&#8217;t erase the bit, but would be irresponsible to let it go unchallenged too.</p>
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		<title>By: Another Boy</title>
		<link>http://jcarrot.org/is-it-a-bris-without-bagels-or-halacha-vs-environmentalism/#comment-183</link>
		<dc:creator>Another Boy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 22:22:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://jcarrot.org/is-it-a-bris-without-bagels-or-halacha-vs-environmentalism/#comment-183</guid>
		<description>I only once had a front row seat at a bris.
And although the baby was fine, I certainly needed a scotch afterwards...

:-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I only once had a front row seat at a bris.<br />
And although the baby was fine, I certainly needed a scotch afterwards&#8230;</p>
<p>:-)</p>
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		<title>By: Edith Stevenson</title>
		<link>http://jcarrot.org/is-it-a-bris-without-bagels-or-halacha-vs-environmentalism/#comment-171</link>
		<dc:creator>Edith Stevenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 03:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://jcarrot.org/is-it-a-bris-without-bagels-or-halacha-vs-environmentalism/#comment-171</guid>
		<description>Where does the tradition say one must have bagels at a bris!?   If one is concerned about environmental issues,  then driving 2 hours for one food item is counter to all that we believe in.  Either SOMEONE coming to the blessed event could have picked up bagels on the way,  or, a menu without bagels could be planned.  If the parents were wheat intolerant, for example, they would not be eating bagels themselves,  so why include them in the meal? 

 It seems inconsistant:  traditions are important enough to the parents to have an offical bris (as opposed to just having the lad circumcised in the hospital by a doctor), yet respecting the traditions surrounding food seem not to be. Why worry about the boy not seeing  a rabbi until 13 years later if connections with a Jewish community are not important all along the way?  Who will the other 9 folks be to help them say Kaddish when the grandparents die? And the kid will become Bar Mitzvah by virtue of simply having 13 birthdays, not due to learning to read and comment upon Torah.   All of these things lead to a good reason to respect traditions - you never know when one of them will become important,  and most of them mesh nicely with organic vegetarian food consumption,  recycling, bike riding, etc.  

I did not grow up in a Kosher home,  and still do not have one.  But I respect those to whom it is important,  and at the same time,  appreciate it when they (my own Conservative Rabbi included)  are willing to eat fish or vegetarian food at my home.  Perhaps  a more parent friendly rabbi would have also been a solution for these folks.  I know I did not have a bris for my son when he was born,  because it was not my family's custom - in the 50's,  my brothers just had it done in the hospital, with no fanfare.  Though we happened to have chosen a biblical  name for our son,  I sort of now regret that I didn't know any rabbis at the time, nor thought to ask around for one.  Being part of age old traditions can be very powerful and special.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where does the tradition say one must have bagels at a bris!?   If one is concerned about environmental issues,  then driving 2 hours for one food item is counter to all that we believe in.  Either SOMEONE coming to the blessed event could have picked up bagels on the way,  or, a menu without bagels could be planned.  If the parents were wheat intolerant, for example, they would not be eating bagels themselves,  so why include them in the meal? </p>
<p> It seems inconsistant:  traditions are important enough to the parents to have an offical bris (as opposed to just having the lad circumcised in the hospital by a doctor), yet respecting the traditions surrounding food seem not to be. Why worry about the boy not seeing  a rabbi until 13 years later if connections with a Jewish community are not important all along the way?  Who will the other 9 folks be to help them say Kaddish when the grandparents die? And the kid will become Bar Mitzvah by virtue of simply having 13 birthdays, not due to learning to read and comment upon Torah.   All of these things lead to a good reason to respect traditions - you never know when one of them will become important,  and most of them mesh nicely with organic vegetarian food consumption,  recycling, bike riding, etc.  </p>
<p>I did not grow up in a Kosher home,  and still do not have one.  But I respect those to whom it is important,  and at the same time,  appreciate it when they (my own Conservative Rabbi included)  are willing to eat fish or vegetarian food at my home.  Perhaps  a more parent friendly rabbi would have also been a solution for these folks.  I know I did not have a bris for my son when he was born,  because it was not my family&#8217;s custom - in the 50&#8217;s,  my brothers just had it done in the hospital, with no fanfare.  Though we happened to have chosen a biblical  name for our son,  I sort of now regret that I didn&#8217;t know any rabbis at the time, nor thought to ask around for one.  Being part of age old traditions can be very powerful and special.</p>
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