Comments on: Kosher Butchers in Long Island Ask: What Is Kosher? http://jcarrot.org/kosher-butchers-in-long-island-ask-what-is-kosher/ Jews, Food, and Contemporary Issues Mon, 01 Dec 2008 19:05:30 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.2 By: invisible_hand http://jcarrot.org/kosher-butchers-in-long-island-ask-what-is-kosher/#comment-10130 invisible_hand Wed, 13 Aug 2008 02:46:48 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/kosher-butchers-in-long-island-ask-what-is-kosher/#comment-10130 why is there no liberal kashrus around? speaking as someone who is a big proponent of such a thing... i believe that it is a factor of the general chumrafication of american judaism. when we, as a people, are in an incredible financial situation (at least, that's the image we have), and have a religious temperament that focuses on the existential charge of denying ourselves as well as the radicalization of amoral ritual (not that there aren't ethics in halakhah, but the orthodox don't want to see it often), we get a kashrus (as well as most areas of halakhah) in which only the most machmir opinion makes you REALLY kosher (or orthodox, or jewish). i think the underlying factor with chumrafication is that judaism (in america mostly) is about identity. in a nation in which religion is a private enterprise, you choose who you want to be, religiously. so, for people to be REALLY jewish, they must cop to the most machmir position (this is what the success of orthodoxy is about). i strongly believe that this stress on machmir and institutional kashrus (and all the costs that come with it) has cost the jewish people many kosher-observers, those who do not want to/cannot absorb the cost (because we think within a framework that since the jews are set money wise, we don't have to consider cost a major concern anymore. also, the existential piety is also triggered by a higher cost, due to our sacrifice). people who want to keep a (more) liberal kashrus can't really compete with these social forces. why is there no liberal kashrus around?
speaking as someone who is a big proponent of such a thing…
i believe that it is a factor of the general chumrafication of american judaism. when we, as a people, are in an incredible financial situation (at least, that’s the image we have), and have a religious temperament that focuses on the existential charge of denying ourselves as well as the radicalization of amoral ritual (not that there aren’t ethics in halakhah, but the orthodox don’t want to see it often), we get a kashrus (as well as most areas of halakhah) in which only the most machmir opinion makes you REALLY kosher (or orthodox, or jewish). i think the underlying factor with chumrafication is that judaism (in america mostly) is about identity. in a nation in which religion is a private enterprise, you choose who you want to be, religiously. so, for people to be REALLY jewish, they must cop to the most machmir position (this is what the success of orthodoxy is about).

i strongly believe that this stress on machmir and institutional kashrus (and all the costs that come with it) has cost the jewish people many kosher-observers, those who do not want to/cannot absorb the cost (because we think within a framework that since the jews are set money wise, we don’t have to consider cost a major concern anymore. also, the existential piety is also triggered by a higher cost, due to our sacrifice).

people who want to keep a (more) liberal kashrus can’t really compete with these social forces.

]]> By: Mordechai http://jcarrot.org/kosher-butchers-in-long-island-ask-what-is-kosher/#comment-10112 Mordechai Mon, 11 Aug 2008 21:28:03 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/kosher-butchers-in-long-island-ask-what-is-kosher/#comment-10112 I wouldn't consider Triangle-K liberal. I meant something that has stated positions on halakhic issues that are more in tune with those individuals in the Conservative movement and the left of Orthodoxy. Triangle K is caught up in many issues that are beyond the scope of this blog. That is not to say they are of their own choice, it is an 'old' hekhsher and has history...This leads to disputes with others. I wouldn’t consider Triangle-K liberal. I meant something that has stated positions on halakhic issues that are more in tune with those individuals in the Conservative movement and the left of Orthodoxy. Triangle K is caught up in many issues that are beyond the scope of this blog. That is not to say they are of their own choice, it is an ‘old’ hekhsher and has history…This leads to disputes with others.

]]> By: Larry Lennhoff http://jcarrot.org/kosher-butchers-in-long-island-ask-what-is-kosher/#comment-10107 Larry Lennhoff Mon, 11 Aug 2008 21:04:40 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/kosher-butchers-in-long-island-ask-what-is-kosher/#comment-10107 I believe the Triangle K is considered a liberal hashgacha by most people. Unfortunately it is so liberal most Orthodox Jews won't eat food that has only that hashgacha. I believe the Triangle K is considered a liberal hashgacha by most people. Unfortunately it is so liberal most Orthodox Jews won’t eat food that has only that hashgacha.

]]> By: Stephen Mendelsohn http://jcarrot.org/kosher-butchers-in-long-island-ask-what-is-kosher/#comment-9848 Stephen Mendelsohn Wed, 06 Aug 2008 20:55:30 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/kosher-butchers-in-long-island-ask-what-is-kosher/#comment-9848 BS"D I believe neighboring New Jersey has a kosher law that can withstand constitutional muster. It merely requires kosher restaurants and groceries to post a sign listing their certifiying agency, frequency of inspection, and has a short checklist for consumers to check for specific kosher standards, without entangling into denominational differences as to what exactly is kosher. BTW, New Jersey also has a similar law regarding halal food. The idea here is consumer protection is a legitimate state function; religious favoritism is not. BS”D

I believe neighboring New Jersey has a kosher law that can withstand constitutional muster. It merely requires kosher restaurants and groceries to post a sign listing their certifiying agency, frequency of inspection, and has a short checklist for consumers to check for specific kosher standards, without entangling into denominational differences as to what exactly is kosher.

BTW, New Jersey also has a similar law regarding halal food. The idea here is consumer protection is a legitimate state function; religious favoritism is not.

]]> By: Mordechai Rackover http://jcarrot.org/kosher-butchers-in-long-island-ask-what-is-kosher/#comment-9630 Mordechai Rackover Mon, 04 Aug 2008 18:50:13 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/kosher-butchers-in-long-island-ask-what-is-kosher/#comment-9630 Ben, I am not sure of the history but I believe that the laws were originally implemented as a form of consumer protection legislation. I have a recollection of problems with 'Kosher Style' restaurants. But... it is an interesting conflict with Church-State issues. Here the question is, in some ways, who defines which church the State is in conflict with. Ben,

I am not sure of the history but I believe that the laws were originally implemented as a form of consumer protection legislation. I have a recollection of problems with ‘Kosher Style’ restaurants.

But… it is an interesting conflict with Church-State issues.

Here the question is, in some ways, who defines which church the State is in conflict with.

]]> By: Ben Murane http://jcarrot.org/kosher-butchers-in-long-island-ask-what-is-kosher/#comment-9622 Ben Murane Mon, 04 Aug 2008 18:09:18 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/kosher-butchers-in-long-island-ask-what-is-kosher/#comment-9622 Hurrah! The Jewish community isn't unanimous about what is and isn't kosher -- and the idea that the government is implementing one denomination's religious law over another is pretty jarring. It's not NY State's job to verify who is and isn't kosher -- that's for the Jews to decide. Hurrah!

The Jewish community isn’t unanimous about what is and isn’t kosher — and the idea that the government is implementing one denomination’s religious law over another is pretty jarring. It’s not NY State’s job to verify who is and isn’t kosher — that’s for the Jews to decide.

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