Comments on: Shechting a goat at the Hazon Food Conference? http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference Jews, Food, and Contemporary Issues Mon, 06 Feb 2012 20:20:42 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Shine http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/comment-page-2#comment-32961 Shine Thu, 24 Nov 2011 03:14:31 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/#comment-32961 During the time when I was growing up, no dressed chicken were sold yet in the market, no frozen chicken either. When we eat chicken, we have to buy it alive from the market or raise our own and slaughter it ourselves. Of course I didn't do any of that. I was just a little girl that time and we had maids to do that. But they usually ask me to hold the wings while they slit the throat of the chicken and for me that was a terrible experience. But then I still enjoyed the chicken meal prepared. It probably would have been a different story if I was the one feeding or taking care of the chicken. During the time when I was growing up, no dressed chicken were sold yet in the market, no frozen chicken either. When we eat chicken, we have to buy it alive from the market or raise our own and slaughter it ourselves. Of course I didn’t do any of that. I was just a little girl that time and we had maids to do that. But they usually ask me to hold the wings while they slit the throat of the chicken and for me that was a terrible experience. But then I still enjoyed the chicken meal prepared. It probably would have been a different story if I was the one feeding or taking care of the chicken.

]]> By: John http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/comment-page-2#comment-30926 John Mon, 06 Sep 2010 02:52:04 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/#comment-30926 The animal in the picture is a lamb and I never tried eating the meat of the lamb.But then I am not a vegetarian and I love to eat pork and beef. Seeing those animals how they killed is really awful though :( The animal in the picture is a lamb and I never tried eating the meat of the lamb.But then I am not a vegetarian and I love to eat pork and beef. Seeing those animals how they killed is really awful though :(

]]> By: Oogie http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/comment-page-2#comment-3332 Oogie Sat, 03 Nov 2007 22:15:46 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/#comment-3332 I am not Jewish, but I have hunted and slaughtered my own meat animals. I raise animals primarily for slaughter and have helped in the slaughter of many of our sheep by throat cut as well as by gun shots to the head. Having watched the aniamls, many of whom I know by name and sight, and whom I am often holding, I am absolutely sure that the most humane way is for a skilled person to do a throat cut. A skilled person waits until the animal has relaxed. The shot is almost always more stressful to the animal. In sheep, especially horned sheep, a shot is also potentially risky for the holder as a sheep head is very tough and a bullet, even a 22 can bounce off the skull and hurt a bystander. A sharp knife can also injure a bystander, but at least it's less likely. As for vegetarian being more sustainable that is not correct. Some farms are best suited to producing grasses, forbs, legumes and other plant products that humans cannot eat. Our farm is not suited to arable agriculture. It must be in permanent pastures to be productive. I can't eat what my sheep eat but I can eat them. Humans evolved to be omnivores. It is impossible for a strict vegetarian to have a balanced diet. You must as a minimum eat B vitamins either synthetically produced or get them from animal products. Why would you go against millions of years of evolution to choose a diet that is neither balanced nor environmentally sound? There is a world of difference between confinement fed factory farming and a dissassembly line slaughtering plant vs a forage finished, humanely killed in a small plant animal both in the quality of meat and the quality of life the animal has. If the person doing the kosher slaughter is skilled and it's done right it is a wonderful way for a sheep to provide a lot of tasty meat. Oh and you don't have to hang it, it is certainly possible to eat it right away. It will generally have more flavor if hung and aged for a while but the solution to that is to butcher an older sheep from a breed noted for producing tasty tender mutton. I am not Jewish, but I have hunted and slaughtered my own meat animals. I raise animals primarily for slaughter and have helped in the slaughter of many of our sheep by throat cut as well as by gun shots to the head. Having watched the aniamls, many of whom I know by name and sight, and whom I am often holding, I am absolutely sure that the most humane way is for a skilled person to do a throat cut. A skilled person waits until the animal has relaxed. The shot is almost always more stressful to the animal. In sheep, especially horned sheep, a shot is also potentially risky for the holder as a sheep head is very tough and a bullet, even a 22 can bounce off the skull and hurt a bystander. A sharp knife can also injure a bystander, but at least it’s less likely.

As for vegetarian being more sustainable that is not correct. Some farms are best suited to producing grasses, forbs, legumes and other plant products that humans cannot eat. Our farm is not suited to arable agriculture. It must be in permanent pastures to be productive. I can’t eat what my sheep eat but I can eat them.

Humans evolved to be omnivores. It is impossible for a strict vegetarian to have a balanced diet. You must as a minimum eat B vitamins either synthetically produced or get them from animal products. Why would you go against millions of years of evolution to choose a diet that is neither balanced nor environmentally sound?

There is a world of difference between confinement fed factory farming and a dissassembly line slaughtering plant vs a forage finished, humanely killed in a small plant animal both in the quality of meat and the quality of life the animal has.

If the person doing the kosher slaughter is skilled and it’s done right it is a wonderful way for a sheep to provide a lot of tasty meat.

Oh and you don’t have to hang it, it is certainly possible to eat it right away. It will generally have more flavor if hung and aged for a while but the solution to that is to butcher an older sheep from a breed noted for producing tasty tender mutton.

]]> By: Mike http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/comment-page-2#comment-3264 Mike Sun, 28 Oct 2007 15:50:49 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/#comment-3264 Hello, i just cant´t understand why the jews are so brutal when they butcher an animal. See what i want to say isn´t it better when the animal get shot in the head then the throat gets cut up? Anyway there are too many psycho jews working in slaughterhouses and they can live their fantasy there. Sieg Heil Hello,

i just cant´t understand why the jews are so brutal when they butcher an animal. See what i want to say isn´t it better when the animal get shot in the head then the throat gets cut up? Anyway there are too many psycho jews working in slaughterhouses and they can live their fantasy there.

Sieg Heil

]]> By: Eden Myers http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/comment-page-2#comment-3206 Eden Myers Mon, 22 Oct 2007 05:39:47 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/#comment-3206 Were it not for my intent to end his life prematurely to consume the meat, the lamb would never have had any life at all. How does this figure into the 'depriving an animal of life is the same as causing suffering' line of reasoning? Were it not for my intent to end his life prematurely to consume the meat, the lamb would never have had any life at all. How does this figure into the ‘depriving an animal of life is the same as causing suffering’ line of reasoning?

]]> By: Brian http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/comment-page-2#comment-3096 Brian Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:21:18 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/#comment-3096 While I won't be attending the food conference this year, I've found this discussion very interesting and enlightening. Even if I've come to this page very late. To add perspective, I am a committed eco-omnivore (committed to both sides of that statement) which today (different from 20 years ago) might be more difficult than being a vegetarian. I have killed my meat to eat it - but not on a regular basis (I live in a city afterall). I have raised crops to feed myself and my family. I respect and nurture vegetarianism - even though I am frequently disrespected due to my well informed choice. I repeat - FREQUENTLY DISRESPECTED. What comes out clearly in the posts above is the fuzzy schism that is growing within the vegetarian/vegan movements. Vegetarians who have made their choice based on a love of animals versus those who have made their choice based on fundamentals of health and the environment. The return to roots farming has many enviro-originating vegetarians questioning a staunch position against eating animals. It seems that some animal-originating vegetarians see that the organic/free range movements are more of a threat than McDonalds ever was. I think this debate is good and will monitor this with great interest. I haven't even addressed the kosher side of this and only will to state that setting up the slaughtering and eating of Empire Kosher chicken as the moral equivalent of eating and slaughtering organic free-range chicken is the ultimate straw-man argument. Of course Empire's practices are repugnent. As observent Jewish environmentalists who choose to eat meat, we should no more eat Empire Chicken than Tysons or Perdue. I hope as we continue this discussion we can make sure to focus on the clear differences between agribusiness and the organic/free range food industry. While I won’t be attending the food conference this year, I’ve found this discussion very interesting and enlightening. Even if I’ve come to this page very late.

To add perspective, I am a committed eco-omnivore (committed to both sides of that statement) which today (different from 20 years ago) might be more difficult than being a vegetarian. I have killed my meat to eat it – but not on a regular basis (I live in a city afterall). I have raised crops to feed myself and my family. I respect and nurture vegetarianism – even though I am frequently disrespected due to my well informed choice. I repeat – FREQUENTLY DISRESPECTED.

What comes out clearly in the posts above is the fuzzy schism that is growing within the vegetarian/vegan movements. Vegetarians who have made their choice based on a love of animals versus those who have made their choice based on fundamentals of health and the environment.

The return to roots farming has many enviro-originating vegetarians questioning a staunch position against eating animals. It seems that some animal-originating vegetarians see that the organic/free range movements are more of a threat than McDonalds ever was.

I think this debate is good and will monitor this with great interest.

I haven’t even addressed the kosher side of this and only will to state that setting up the slaughtering and eating of Empire Kosher chicken as the moral equivalent of eating and slaughtering organic free-range chicken is the ultimate straw-man argument.

Of course Empire’s practices are repugnent. As observent Jewish environmentalists who choose to eat meat, we should no more eat Empire Chicken than Tysons or Perdue.

I hope as we continue this discussion we can make sure to focus on the clear differences between agribusiness and the organic/free range food industry.

]]> By: Rabbi Shmuel http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/comment-page-2#comment-2788 Rabbi Shmuel Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:52:20 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/#comment-2788 Hmmm - a bunch of actors shechting a goat - Let's flm it and call it "The Violence of the Hams" Hmmm – a bunch of actors shechting a goat – Let’s flm it and call it “The Violence of the Hams”

]]> By: msk http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/comment-page-2#comment-2785 msk Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:08:44 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/#comment-2785 I'll admit up front that I am not a member of Hazon and cannot attend the conference, so this question of shechting a goat may be at more of a remove for me. After reading this entire debate, I only thought now to look at Hazon's vision and mission. There is a great deal in there about exploration, journeys, engagement, and it seems to me that shechting an animal at the food conference fits right in with that mission. The idea is to give people the opportunity to voluntarily witness something they have likely never witnessed and decide about meat-eating on their own. Those who have already decided about meat-eating, one way or another, may or may not change their minds based on what they experience. Given Hazon's mission, and the fact that this is the Food Conference, it seems the perfect place to shecht an animal for the purposes of coming to a greater understanding of what meat-eating involves, rather than in some separate forum. Those who are appalled have the choice of not witnessing the slaughter. Those who feel appalled that Hazon would even consider this action and don't want to financially support it through their conference dues can decide not to go. Several of the posts expressing outright disgust seem to hold the belief that as an environmental organization, Hazon should automatically endorse vegetarianism. But Hazon is not the Jewish Sierra Club, or PETA. Their mission indicates that rather than taking positions, they engage in experiences to explore issues. In that light, it seems obvious to me how they could consider such a "barbaric act" as shechting a goat at the food conference. I’ll admit up front that I am not a member of Hazon and cannot attend the conference, so this question of shechting a goat may be at more of a remove for me.

After reading this entire debate, I only thought now to look at Hazon’s vision and mission. There is a great deal in there about exploration, journeys, engagement, and it seems to me that shechting an animal at the food conference fits right in with that mission. The idea is to give people the opportunity to voluntarily witness something they have likely never witnessed and decide about meat-eating on their own. Those who have already decided about meat-eating, one way or another, may or may not change their minds based on what they experience.

Given Hazon’s mission, and the fact that this is the Food Conference, it seems the perfect place to shecht an animal for the purposes of coming to a greater understanding of what meat-eating involves, rather than in some separate forum. Those who are appalled have the choice of not witnessing the slaughter.

Those who feel appalled that Hazon would even consider this action and don’t want to financially support it through their conference dues can decide not to go. Several of the posts expressing outright disgust seem to hold the belief that as an environmental organization, Hazon should automatically endorse vegetarianism. But Hazon is not the Jewish Sierra Club, or PETA. Their mission indicates that rather than taking positions, they engage in experiences to explore issues. In that light, it seems obvious to me how they could consider such a “barbaric act” as shechting a goat at the food conference.

]]> By: Jonathan Wolf http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/comment-page-2#comment-2774 Jonathan Wolf Wed, 12 Sep 2007 02:23:57 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/#comment-2774 I have not had time to carefully read the many thoughtful postings above, but my initial reaction when I read Nigel's suggestion was very different from that of beloved kosher vegetarian colleagues such as Richard Schwartz, Rabbi Hillel Norry, and Pauline Yearwood. As pretty much the original activist for Jewish vegetarianism in N. America [beginning in the 1970s, I founded and led the JVNA, published the "Jewish Vegetarian Sprout" newsletter, and authored pamphlets listing the reasons Jews should be vegetarians to which probably not much has been added in the 30 years since], I hope I have some standing to say that Nigel's idea sounds to me like a fairly good one. The killing and eating of animals is (excuse the pun) the unacknowledged elephant in the room at nearly every Jewish banquet and simcha. (Waste, gluttony, and self-poisoning junk foods lurk in the backgrounds as well). It sounds like the Hazon food conference will feature plenty of dead creatures. Why not face the implications and consequences by participating in the actual killing which meat-eating necessitates? Otherwise the kosher carnivore is like Mitt Romney, advocating avidly for somebody to die in Iraq as long as it's not his strapping young sons. I would wager that gathering to watch an actual sheep having its throat slit would turn almost all the observers into vegetarians, as it should. Perhaps some videos from Postville and other kosher slaughterhouses would have the same effect, but maybe not. If you can't stand to kill it, don't eat it. Since Hazon ought (it seems to me) to stand for food which is humane, sustainable, minimally polluting and carbon-producing, healthful, and holy, that should mean (among other standards) vegetarian. This demonstration might (at some price-- but at least not a hidden, denial-ridden cost) remind us all of that. A happy and kosher (in all senses) New Year to everyone, and to all of humanity and all of Gd's creatures. I have not had time to carefully read the many thoughtful postings above, but my initial reaction when I read Nigel’s suggestion was very different from that of beloved kosher vegetarian colleagues such as Richard Schwartz, Rabbi Hillel Norry, and Pauline Yearwood.

As pretty much the original activist for Jewish vegetarianism in N. America [beginning in the 1970s, I founded and led the JVNA, published the "Jewish Vegetarian Sprout" newsletter, and authored pamphlets listing the reasons Jews should be vegetarians to which probably not much has been added in the 30 years since], I hope I have some standing to say that Nigel’s idea sounds to me like a fairly good one.

The killing and eating of animals is (excuse the pun) the unacknowledged elephant in the room at nearly every Jewish banquet and simcha. (Waste, gluttony, and self-poisoning junk foods lurk in the backgrounds as well). It sounds like the Hazon food conference will feature plenty of dead creatures.

Why not face the implications and consequences by participating in the actual killing which meat-eating necessitates? Otherwise the kosher carnivore is like Mitt Romney, advocating avidly for somebody to die in Iraq as long as it’s not his strapping young sons.

I would wager that gathering to watch an actual sheep having its throat slit would turn almost all the observers into vegetarians, as it should. Perhaps some videos from Postville and other kosher slaughterhouses would have the same effect, but maybe not.

If you can’t stand to kill it, don’t eat it. Since Hazon ought (it seems to me) to stand for food which is humane, sustainable, minimally polluting and carbon-producing, healthful, and holy, that should mean (among other standards) vegetarian. This demonstration might (at some price– but at least not a hidden, denial-ridden cost) remind us all of that.

A happy and kosher (in all senses) New Year to everyone, and to all of humanity and all of Gd’s creatures.

]]> By: Sharon http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/comment-page-2#comment-2765 Sharon Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:29:55 +0000 http://jcarrot.org/shechting-a-goat-at-the-hazon-food-conference/#comment-2765 I was glad to learn about your organization, envionmental ideals and what seemed like a lean towards vegetarianism, since the two are so related. I just read this and what you are planning on doing. My stomach started turning as I read it and my heart started to fill up with pain. Just when I thought I found an enlightened Jewish organization. Yes, the fact that you "put it out there" and there is a great deal of opposition gives me hope BUT - how on earth can you even consider such a barbaric act? Lionel Friedberg put it perfectly as did Roberta Schiff above. It is appalling and highly disturbing that this is even being considered. There no such thing as humane slaughter. Yes - judging from some of the responses above - well meaning Jews think they can justify and rationalize their meat addiction - but hiding behind archaic rules and taking the life of sentient beings does not justify pain and suffering ( of both the animal, the environment and the humans who eventually get diseases from a flesh diet). We are all intelligent enough to know that animals feel pain, have emotions and are entitled to live out their lives in a way that is inherent to their nature. That's what Jewish ideology is about. Dr. Schwartz goes into the humane theme in the bible so I won't go into that. Please do not justify what we do now in the 21st century and relate it to events that are interpreted in so many ways in the bible. Please look into your heart, your soul without any pre determined mental models you may have about vegetarianism and vegetarians. Please do not use God to justify pain and suffering. Anybody with a compassionate heart (even those who say they are not "animal people") would be opposed to this. I was glad to learn about your organization, envionmental ideals and what seemed like a lean towards vegetarianism, since the two are so related.
I just read this and what you are planning on doing. My stomach started turning as I read it and my heart started to fill up with pain. Just when I thought I found an enlightened Jewish organization. Yes, the fact that you “put it out there” and there is a great deal of opposition gives me hope BUT – how on earth can you even consider such a barbaric act?
Lionel Friedberg put it perfectly as did Roberta Schiff above. It is appalling and highly disturbing that this is even being considered. There no such thing as humane slaughter. Yes – judging from some of the responses above – well meaning Jews think they can justify and rationalize their meat addiction – but hiding behind archaic rules and taking the life of sentient beings does not justify pain and suffering ( of both the animal, the environment and the humans who eventually get diseases from a flesh diet). We are all intelligent enough to know that animals feel pain, have emotions and are entitled to live out their lives in a way that is inherent to their nature. That’s what Jewish ideology is about. Dr. Schwartz goes into the humane theme in the bible so I won’t go into that. Please do not justify what we do now in the 21st century and relate it to events that are interpreted in so many ways in the bible. Please look into your heart, your soul without any pre determined mental models you may have about vegetarianism and vegetarians. Please do not use God to justify pain and suffering. Anybody with a compassionate heart (even those who say they are not “animal people”) would be opposed to this.

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