As a current member of VeggieJews (before Peter or another moderator should kick me off or somehow “dissuade” me from remaining), please be advised that Richard Schwartz DOES partially speak for this member of the Jewish vegetarian community and that I must disagree with Peter’s multiple statements as expressed above. Oh, I believe that I DO understand Peter’s statements. Additionally, I believe that Shmuel’s and Richard Schwartz’s above comments concerning this thread should CERTAINLY not be skimmed over or just ignored completely. While Peter may think that Hazon’s commitment to reduce comsumption of meat by 50% by 2015 is anything BUT a Kiddush HaShem, I would believe otherwise.

I’d like to equate here the continual craving to eat meat as a type of “addiction” so-to-speak.. Gradual REDUCTIONS in eating meat — similar to gradual reductions in abuse of many types of addictive substances — are MUCH more effective than going Cold Turkey, if you readers will pardon this particular non-vegetarian expression ;-)

There is a Wikipedia on this “Cold Turkey” expression at webpage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_turkey

It is now just after New Year’s Day 2010, and many of our secular Jewish brothers and sisters are acting upon their New Year’s resolutions to lose weight and be in better physical shape for the upcoming year. Improvements in diet and increasing regular physical exercise are, of course, the primary means of carrying this out, as nutritionists and other health professionals can certainly attest to. And keeping a completely vegetarian diet certainly is ONE major way, among other ways, to improve one’s diet. OTOH, those who go too far and all of a sudden completely avoid ALL food, such persons will no doubt suffer negative health effects from their continuous, uninterrupted fastings (e.g., anorexia nervosa and/or increasingly compromised immune systems). We all realize that nervous-system collapse and death are the eventual and extreme results of such Cold Turkey starvation weight-loss tactics.

There is a place (HaMakom) we may get to inside us where there is a feeling of merging. It brings about an unintended spontaneous shift. While there is a place for seeing diet issues as a prescription for solving social and global ills, we are going to get stuck in argument unless the cause and effect get cleared up. Being in HaMakom is the cause, feeling merged is the experience, our diet is the effect, and the planeto-social impacts of our diet are the secondary effect of the effect.

I hope we get that our inner Torah, the most important Torah according to the Ba’al Shem Tov, is the guide of the Jewish people, where Hashem can speak to each of us, literate or illiterate. We are in our walk (our halachah) with Hashem. As complete as I feel in the place, HaMakom, mental arguing dissolves. That dissolution of argumentativeness is so important because eating is always one of our most intimate activities. We love to eat in peace and not in conflict. We don’t get to that place of stillness to eat in peace by the argumentative faculty of the mind. We get there through intimacy, as though each other, and certainly as though Hashem, were our beloved.

We are going to be hungry for being right, or hungry for being convincing, eternally starved, if we keep coming to life’s questions and to each other’s faces with so much to be right about. It is time we go into knowing directly or “apperception” of the living word of Hashem within us. We have a guide to deveikut, merging into Oneness, in our blessed lineage. Use it. Cultivate silence, cultivate our inner light and life force (yes, Jewish concepts), feel the simcha (which means more than joyfulness such as dancing, but inner bliss). Bliss, simcha is inherently yichud, oneness, and from oneness spontaneously a life of service and upliftment. In simcha we see the soul rejoicing “Kadosh Kadosh Kadosh” behind every pair of eyes, human and animal. We can dance with our animals and our family — that is why animals get Shabbat in the Torah.

“Messiach will come if every Jew properly observes two consecutive Shabbats.[9] Talmud Shabbat Trac. 118.”

As I understand it, this means holding Shabbat consciousness of simcha, shalom, and yichud from one Shabbat to the next. The next six days of the week after a good Shabbat, in fact every day, is Shabbat in these prophecied times, if something is going to happen as far as Mossiach in our lifetimes. Included in that is the consciousness we give animals on Shabbat. We’ve had one day a week in the past, as a bicyclist once has training wheels. Now it is time to ride on our own. Meaning, the Shabbat consciousness of wholeness, Yichud, or Union with all life infused with the illuminating Shekhinah–it is now upon us to remember and witness Shabbat Consciousness all seven days of the week. All seven days of HaMakom and oneness, that brings about glorious massiach consciousness on all the Earth.

In conclusion and the primary point I want to share with you: There isn’t a prescription besides knowing G-d: “Vanity of vanities,” no act matters but to know G-d, as our wisest king Shlomo said. We cannot eat, posture, promote, compost, and definitely not argue our way to the answer and the Redemption. “Know Hashem” is the only meaning. In Tehilim, “Be still and know I am G-d.” Be still and know the One.

So saying veganism is the answer, in the redemptive sense, isn’t exactly right. We’ve got it subtly flipped over backwards. “Be still and know I am G-d” is the only answer.

Then live what makes it easier for you to be still within your thoughts. An abundance of people find veganism supports the stillness and quiet of the egoic mind. That sums up the field of Spiritual Nutrition.

And when you find the stillness and are filled with the awe of the grace of Hashem, that’s when many, many people spontaneously make another transition, regarding feeling, touching, acknowledging the soul behind all beings’ eyes.

Again, we can crack this prison wall of stagnant back and forth (holding no one back but ourselves). The prescription isn’t veganism — it’s the other way around! The unintended outcome of following Torah wisdom, becoming an empty vessel and entering HaMakom, for many is to feel “I would as soon bite my own arm as unnecessarily harm another animal with blood in its veins and a soul behind its eyes, as I am one neshamah with it.” That’s how beyond choice and beyond intellectualizing what I’m talking about is. It’s the “insperience” directly, not left-brained object-oriented thought. Going into HaMakom is entering Gan Eden, and the garden as a reality coming very, very much alive. Yes, there is a creation dietary blueprint given to creation within us, but we can live that blueprint not even because it’s in Chapter 1, but because, simply, “Of Course! We are one soul, and look, listen, feel, smell, taste this garden!”

First get still and know G-d, then the Garden will enter our eyes, ears, pores, nose, and mouth. Torah guides us to inner readiness for messiah-like actions such as choiceless choices that end death. My life is my message is walking the halachah of oneness-simcha-bliss-shalom consciousness.

And I think there is much common ground that we can build on, including the following:

1. As Shmuel indicates, “the current food system is broken and unsustainable.”

2. The world is currently on a path toward a major catastrophe from global warming.

3. It is essential that steps be taken as soon as possible to try to avoid the potential climate catastrophe.

4. A major factor behind the climate crisis is factory farming.

5. A reduction of at least 50% of meat consumption by Jews would be positive.

6. Jews have a choice re their diets, and one acceptable option is a vegan diet. Although I do not favor them, other choices involve eating significantly less meat and/or eating meat raised under non-factory farmed conditions.

7. Judaism teaches that we should guard our health, treat animals compassionately, protect the environment, conserve natural resources and help hungry people, and these teachings should be considered in our choice of diets.

8. Hazon has built up a well-justified good reputation as a group doing positive things re food issues and therefore has great potential to influence other Jews and later society in general.

Based on these concepts that I hope we can generally agree with, I think that Hazon should take a more open role in promoting its initiative to seek a reduction in meat consumption by 50% by 2015.

If others have any other points re common ground that theythink should be added or other conclusions, please state them. Thanks.

Well Pete, the fact that you feel the need to create strawmen, bogeymen and put words in people’s mouths — words which they neither said nor meant, that you twist every credible argument with some Kafkaesque logic apparent only to yourself, all of the foregoing with a smug, self-congratulatory smarminess may go a long way to explain why your petition is only able to garner 800 signatures out of the worldwide population of hundreds of gajillion people.

Perhaps your inability to differentiate between education and entertainment precipitated your departure from the West Coast.

All are in agreement that the current food system is hopelessly broken and unsustainable. So that leaves the other piece under discussion, namely whether there can be any meat at all in a sustainable diet. (Ironically, the main issue as to what the Torah says in these cases is never addressed). Obviously, Hazon and the majority of the posters (myself included) feel that there can be. You and yours feel that there can’t. I guess what rankles many folks here is the fact that we are your closest allies and you have chosen to turn on us bringing in your tempeh-bearing minions who chant “bad Jew, bad environmentalist — shame shame shame”. That’ll go a long way towards winning friends and influencing people.

While I personally parted ways with Hazon based on the Jewish piece (or the lack thereof), I nevertheless believe that it is counterproductive to torpedo their environmental efforts as they have been successful in bringing this dialogue to the next level and garnering much media attention to their efforts. Again, it comes down to whether you want to be right or whether you want to be effective. Unfortunately for all, you have apparently elected the former at the expense of the latter.

“The question is, when will folks like you realize that life is sacred to the Jewish People . . .”

perhaps when folks like you stop playing hackee sakee with supermodels on the beaches of Tel Aviv and actually open a real Jewish text (and no — Richard Schwartz’s 240 articles [actually one article rewritten 240 times] doesn’t count). Let me ask you something — When you practiced law did you actually read the cases or did you just cite them based on the headnotes? I thought so.

Well, Josh, the fact that you apparently see slaughter as entertainment is the very reason that we can’t join forces. After the Holocaust, no Jew should ever take a life unless forced by desperate circumstances to do so. Killng should never be done for recreation or any other reason. It is a horribly sad act that reduces us all, not an opportunity to enjoy the power trip of taking a life.

You apparently feel persecuted by vegetarians who want to take your fun away. How bizarre! It is the helpless and harmless animals whom you kill without need who are the real victims of human blood lust. They are the ones who suffer and die by the billions every year so that humans can eat unhealthy, high fat, high cholesterol, envirnmentally destructive and cruelly produced food despite the alternative of a cruelty free, healthy and environmentally sane vegetarian alternative.

No, Josh, I can’t stand by silently while you get your kicks killing animals any more than I could stand by while a school yard bully beats up weaker, defenseless kids. No doubt he also feels persecuted when others try to stop the injustice and destructiveness of his behavior. But when good folks do nothing, evil triumphs.

I do not mean to call you evil, but your actions certainly leave much to be desired. You know the old saying: Hate the sin, love the sinner.

The question is, when will folks like you realize that life is sacred to the Jewish People and its needless destruction lessens us all. Just because we are permitted to eat meat does not mean that we have to eat meat.

The fact that some folks find entertainment in needless slaughter is exactly why we have so much cruelty to animals, such as cock fighting, bull fighting and dog fighting. I suppose that Michael Vick (football star and convicted felon for dog fighting) also wonders why folks of conscience won’t just leave him alone.

You don’t have to join us all on our march to a healthier, environmentally saner and less cruel future but can’t you at least stay out of the way of those who want to help take us there?

Do you have to be so proud of needlessl shedding blood?

I have been a long time promoter of Hazon events in JVNA newsletters and I plan to generally keep doing that. I have been involved in this discussion not primarily to change people who are generally aware of the issues and have worked out their own ways of dealing with them. I have been involved because Hazon has rightfully developed a reputation as the main Jewish group concerned with food issues and thus has the potential to help shift our imperiled world to a sustainable path.

Hazon can do this by stressing that the world is heading rapidly toward an unprecedented catastrophe and that a major shift away from factory farming is essential if the world is to have a chance to avoid that catastrophe. Hazon can then discuss options, including more sustainable production of meat, but also pointing out that vegetarianism is very consistent with Judaism, provides adequate nutrition, possibly with some supplementation, and has many benefits re reducing global warming and many other environmental threats.

If Hazon at least gets vegetarianism and other alternatives to factory-farmed meat onto the Jewish agenda, it would be doing a tremendous kiddush Hashem in showing the relevance og eternal Jewish teachings to present crises. Thank.

You realize there is literally no other opportunities to participate in a kosher schechting in this side of the continent? If you cant deal with a Jewish environmental food group that has sustainable meats as part of their agenda than I’m sorry for you but dont take that away from the rest of us because there is nowhere else we can go. You have your veggie jews thingy to talk to other vegan soapboxers, but Hazon is all we have for kosher sustainable meat. Btw Pete, can u stop plugging your yahoo group? You’ve done it like 7 times in this debate and its become extremely annoying.

When it comes down to it we’re probably not gonna save the humanity by eating sustainable meats and your definitely not gonna save humanity by annoying everyone with your dogmatic vegan antics – or, to put it in kinder terms, your not gonna save the humanity by eating tofu. But the point is we’re both trying. Lets join forces, the veganists and sustainable meaters, and try to convince people who don’t care to start caring. What do ya say?

Unfortunately, the only thing that will save our planet from the effects of global warming is to lighten our carbon footprints by changing promptly to a healthy, humane and environmentally sane plant-based diet. Talk is cheap. Real change happens when one choses what to buy in the supermarket.

For those who wish information on how to change to a plant-based diet, please go to http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/veggiejews and click on the link to “files.” There you will find an article called “Pete’s Program for a 10 Week Transition to a Veg*n Diet.” Note: that’s 10 weeks, not 6 years as Hazon recomments. It’s easy, it’s interesting, it costs you nothing and, best of all, it works.

And please tell Hazon to replace its environmentally friendly but empty words with action by making next year’s food conference totally vegetarian.

Oh, and you’re right about disease and health too, it’s all caused by eating meat. Even though the people who live the longest are meat-eaters as a rule (e.g., see recently deceased Gertrude Baines of the U.S. who died at 115 years of age, and loved her crispy bacon). There has never been one vegan to hold that record, and if there was ever a vegetarian, it was an exception, not the rule. Compare vegetarian Seventh Day Adventists to meat-eating Mormons… Mormons live longer, on average. Ever heard of the French Paradox? I could go on (and on and on), but I’ll just stop and acquiesce, that, you’re right.

Richard, you’re right about the analogy, even though in the analogy, all you have to do is run out of the house. I don’t think you’re advocating running away from America, or from Earth, are you? We already ran away from the Old Country with all their famines and droughts, killing hundreds of thousands regularly. Oops! Again, let’s not talk about food security. You’re right, let’s just run away from the burning house which is the oncoming climate catastrophe, and not worry about where we’re running to.

Bobbie, I guess when you say that you’re glad you don’t kill animals or cause undue suffering, you mean you’re glad you don’t have to think about the animals that were killed or suffered or brought to the brink of extinction so you could enjoy your food with no dairy or animal products and then leave self-righteous comments in online forums dismissing the suffering of said animals. [!] Otherwise I have no idea what you’re talking about.

We all agree that factory farming is destroying the world. Why can’t you guys just acknowledge that beyond that point, you can’t definitely say anything else, and there is no point in putting veganism on the Hazon agenda?

I can tell none of you have had significant experiences working on farms. This conversation would be much more constructive if you had, and had knowledge of the real world outside the writings of the Baskin Robbins heir, or whoever else’s theories you’re immersed in.

(Sorry my sarcasm is becoming more pointed… it’s correlated with the absurdity of the conversation.)

Interesting how even in “conversation” misinformation gets passed on. I have found the same “misinformation” and distortion being passed on by those who do not look at the dangers to our environment and health by eating animals.

“May All Be Fed” and “Diet For a New America” by John Robbins are excellent books for showing the dangers of animal and dairy based diets.

Dr. Richard Schwartz’s comments are outstanding. I appreciate his knowledge and writings of enjoying Jewish Holidays without killing animals.

As I eat my meals, I am glad that I don’t kill animals or cause undue suffering by enjoying food with no dairy or animal products.

Agree with Richard Schwartz that Hazon leaders and others have a chance to make a difference by promoting plant-based diet. The environment and future of humanity depend on it.

Happy New Year

Bobbie